Subcontrabass tubas, or just chubby contrabasses?

[Dave Detwiler]

Hi all,

As I continue to explore the giant tubas that have existed over the years, there are two that were built by Rudolph Sander in 1899, and survive to this day, and both claim to be subcontrabass C tubas. But I'm not so sure about the "subcontrabass" part.

If a regular contrabass C tuba has 16-feet of tubing, and a subcontrabass C has 32-feet, I'm thinking the one on the left is just a chubby contrabass tuba. And the one on the right - could it have 32-feet of tubing? It does have what appear to be three loops of tubing before reaching the valve cluster. Is that one indeed a subcontrabass C tuba?

Oh, and both are said to be just over 5-feet tall.

Let me know what you think - thanks!
Dave

Two Rudolph Sander C Tubas, built in 1899.JPG (106.28 KiB) Viewed 1584 times

[bort2.0]

Hrmm... so if it has the regular contrabass tubing length, but that same length of tubing is much fatter throughout the tuba... I wonder how that plays. Or sounds. Is that even physically possible, to make the tubing that much wider, but still wrap it in the same way?

[matt g]

The valve circuits on the horn on the left look close to regular old CC length whereas the ones on the right could be double that of a CC tuba.

[KingTuba1241X]

Don't show Brett anymore large woof-o-phone photos, he's already gassing about a 6/4. Minnesota already has enough problems

[bloke]

I personally consider any tuba-like instrument longer than GG (GG being an old-school/old-rules corps: "contra") to be a "sub-contrabass" something-or-other...so FF-or-longer (yeah, that black-colored white key on a Bösendorfer piano - the key that they love to pound on in upscale Baptist churches...) is "sub-contrabass" (to me).

@Mikelynch (Hi, Mike !!! ) generously invites people into his home, has everyone try out his subcontrabass CC (actual CC, though most probably consider it to be a CCC) 32-feet-bugle tuba, and - when they aren't looking - he snaps their pictures.

bloke "As - contrary to what might be expected - there is a warming trend, you're making me think about going out to the pond, catching a bass, scaling/filleting it, and making a delicious bass sub sandwich."

[humBell]

If i had to guess, yeah, the one on the left is low F, and the on the right low C, and perhaps the 4th valve onthe left gives them the right to call it a C? Similar logic as the A/Bb adjustment loops in some old trumpets.

But the bell on the left is extra phat! Even if it is merely a subcontralto?

[Three Valves]

....upscale Baptist churches...)

I thought the Upscale Baptists splintered off and became Presbyterians...

[bloke]

....upscale Baptist churches...)

I thought the Upscale Baptists splintered off and became Presbyterians...

...maybe some of those so-called “independent Presbyterians”, which – if anyone knows what the word “Presbyterian“ means, is an oxymoron...
... And Presbyterians don’t bathe in church, and neither do they vote the same way as Baptists.

[Dave Detwiler]

Let me rein you back in before we get too far off the original path (although, as a pastor, I'm cool with having some fun with God's wonderfully diverse family!).

So, Sander tuba #1, as I suspected, is a 16-ft contrabass C (if it is indeed a C), and #2 (often referred to as the Hoffnung Tuba, but owned by Mike) is indeed a 32-ft subcontrabass C.

How about Brooke's Monster Bass, built by C. G. Conn in 1897? While it is super chunky, it was reported at the time to have 208 inches of tubing, which is close to 18 feet, so this would simply be a hefty contrabass Bb horn (but I think the report of the bell being 32 inches in diameter might be an exaggeration, when you compare it to the head of the player in the photo).

1897 Brooke's Giant Conn Tuba.JPG (77.02 KiB) Viewed 1447 times

[iiipopes]

....upscale Baptist churches...)

I thought the Upscale Baptists splintered off and became Presbyterians...

Actually, if you go back 200-300 years of church history, it is more like the other way around.

[Three Valves]

I suppose it doesn't really matter now....

Most are in a race to out Unitarian the Unitarians!!

[Dave Detwiler]

And . . . we're fully off the path again!

So, to pull you back in, for one last time (fingers crossed) . . .

How about this Giant Helicon Bass, also made by C. G. Conn in 1897, but this time for Frederick Innes's band. There's no way it is actually a subcontrabass horn, right? That would require 36-ft of tubing before the valve cluster. While it is impressively large, and reportedly weighed 63 pounds, so shoulder damage was a given, it appears to be an 18-ft Bb helicon on steroids!

Thoughts?

1897 Giant Helicon Bass built by Conn.JPG (93.66 KiB) Viewed 1417 times

[humBell]

It looks like the wrap on the helicon is a full foot more than normal, and the bell sticks out a bunch. If it is just a contrabass, i'd be surprised if it is a full wrap. Ican't tell for sure it is a full wrap, or just funny secondary reflection on the main wrap.

Are we back on the straight and narrow? My knowledge of presbaterians is pretty much limited to not looking like the Electric Mayhem.

[Kirley]

How about Brooke's Monster Bass, built by C. G. Conn in 1897? While it is super chunky, it was reported at the time to have 208 inches of tubing, which is close to 18 feet, so this would simply be a hefty contrabass Bb horn (but I think the report of the bell being 32 inches in diameter might be an exaggeration, when you compare it to the head of the player in the photo).

I think for a lot of these, the best thing to look at is the valve tubing. This horn definitely has normal (contrabass) length valve tubing.

That helicon pic you posted is to difficult to make out, though.

[bloke]

Is it a reasonably safe guess that the really fat BB-flat contrabass (in Mr. Detwiler's supplied photograph) is about the same fatness as the jumbo sousaphones, but just in the shape of a lap-tuba ?

[humBell]

Obviously we don't know how big the player is, but i still think this hangs lower than your typical jumbo...

Hip length at a sinister angle too, rather than waste length. (And i suppose walking tubas are pretty much sinister by defaul)

[Mikelynch]

Judging by the length of the valve tubing, the Brooke's horn would have to be a standard 18' length.

For anyone trying to approximate, the Hoffnung horn pictured has the BBBb extender in the tuning slide, though the slides are pushed in relative to their position for playing the horn in CCC. So for playing in BBBb the slides would be extended to be noticeably longer (though there is plenty of pull, as can be seen).

Relative to the helicon, it could be an EEb. But the lead pipe shape and proportions look pretty close to Dave's picture of Conn's original sousaphone. An interesting comparison can be made to Ian Church's previously posted pictures with the Carl Fischer BBb helicon. That quick wide flare adds more visual impact than acoustic length of the tube.

It's also probably useful to factor in the then-common juxtaposition of small performers with large instruments or players (such as the several pictures of Jack Richardson (some with his raincatcher), next to a petite player (usually harpist or flutist).

Miscellaneous thoughts completed for now...

Mike

[Dave Detwiler]

For anyone trying to approximate, the Hoffnung horn pictured has the BBBb extender in the tuning slide, though the slides are pushed in relative to their position for playing the horn in CCC. So for playing in BBBb the slides would be extended to be noticeably longer (though there is plenty of pull, as can be seen).

Thanks so much for weighing in, Mike!

Question for you: Can you confirm, correct or clarify the following regarding the Hoffnung Tuba? I'll be publishing a list of all of the known subcontrabass tubas in the ITEA Journal (just size-related info), and want to get those figures as accurate as I can. Thanks!

- Height: 5 feet 2 inches
- Weight: accounts vary from 90 to 100 to 165 pounds!
- Bell Diameter: 41 inches

[poomshanka]

If the horn on the left had a center of pitch, I wasn't able to find it:

https://www.daveamason.com/ubertuber/

[Dave Detwiler]

If the horn on the left had a center of pitch, I wasn't able to find it:

https://www.daveamason.com/ubertuber/

Interesting - thanks for sharing that. Did you by any chance measure the bell diameter?

And bloke (or Mike), since you played the Hoffnung tuba, how does it play and sound?