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So, it's been argued that since I do a lot of commercial gigs on the tuba, I should be getting a sousaphone before a bass tuba. The 12J is great for strolling, except for not having the presence that a sousaphone can get.

What are some decent options on a freelancer's budget, and what are some options I want? Is the 40K worth the extra valve, considering the music? What about if I'd like to later on get a fiberglass bell, to do have the option?

Mainly, I do a bunch of jazz/commercial work, and there are some marching outfits in town that I've been told could use me. Probably looking for something on the "better-looking" side this time, since marching bands like shiny horns...so lacquer wear isn't as much desired.

Basically, what comes in at a decent price used, and the parent company still makes parts if repairs are needed?

You want a used 3-valve souzy, preferably something like a pre-cyborg King, Conn, Reynolds, or Olds. Jupiters may not be durable for your intended purpose. Yamahas of any age are too expensive for what they are.

For strolling or marching, souzys with the 4th valve are too heavy. The 4th valve souzys were actually originally made for pre-amplification jazz dance bands indoors. If you are a stickler for intonation, pull and set the 3rd valve slide so 2+3 combinations are slightly flat, so that 1+3 combinations are only marginally sharp and can be lipped. Or do what I did: convert the upper slide of the 1st valve circuit of a Conn to be movable, just like "riding throttle" on the first valve slide of a tuba.

Prices are all over the map. It may be less expensive to get one and have it relaquered rather than to purchase new.

The Conn 20K and King/Conn 2350/36K are still being made. Any shop worth its tools will have many crash parts in their morgues, and new parts are available on some models, although they may need to be modified slightly due to changes in manufacturing, mandrels, presses, etc., over the years.

Don't worry about parts. On occasion I play a Conn Cavalier, a mid-30's "student" model, predecessor to the 14K, which still has all its original hardware.

If you want a 'glass souzy, get a 'glass souzy. The bell is the weakest link, as are some of the brackets, like the bell bracket on an Olds and the brass to 'glass joint on others, and a 'glass bell will not sound good on an otherwise all brass horn. The difference in weight is only a pound or two at the bell, which is negligible compared to the weight of the entire souzy, as all souzys are brass through the valve block and at least the first branch before transitioning to 'glass for the rest of the bugle and bell.

Shop around, shop around, shop around.

Thanks. I've heard the false tones on sousas are also so good, there's really no need. I didn't even consider the extra weight of the 4th valve.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:28 pm If you want a 'glass souzy, get a 'glass souzy. The bell is the weak link, and will not sound good on an otherwise all brass horn.

I though it would be cool (but somewhat impractical) to do one of those LED installations on a fiberglass bell as an option...though I guess a junked brass bell could work just as well.

There's a very interesting ancient Holton on the 'bay with a cool bell engraving, but while the ad says the valves work, I'm assuming a 105 year-old instrument will have compression issues, and would definitely need a lacquering (tha patina is straight black). And I'd guess it'd be in high pitch.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:46 pm Is the 40K worth the extra valve, considering the music?

No. Speaking as the owner, since that's my sousaphone. The only caveat here is that I started with 3 valves and still have a tendency to revert to 3V fingering in tight spots. A player who would have a hard time managing without a 4th valve, in the octave below the staff, would obviously get more value out of the 40K.

The 40K is also rather a large tuba. Circumference 23 inches at the bell tenon. I'm fuzzy on comparing dimensions with elbows and broad bell flares, but that looks to me like about the size of my Holton 109 (i.e., it's a BAT.) The 38K is the same, and I believe the 20K is not materially smaller. That's good news if it's what you like, but I'm sure there are commercial musical traditions that are better served by something more in the 14K size range.

King fiberglass 3V is amazing...

As JP is a really well-made King knock-off, I wish there was a fiberglass version...
...maybe someday...the (you know...the) thing has really messed up advancement of stuff on the drawing board, as well as stuff already in development.

Yamaha sousaphones are okay also. I think the first valve slide can be flipped on those pretty easily. They are a smidge bigger than the King.

I have not seen complaints about the Wessex helicons.

The JP Sousa is top notch...

Oh, that brings me to a question:

The 12J is nice and punchy; perfect for these genres, especially when mic'd. The Kanstul has a big, thick, enveloping tone, and slightly less articulate.

I assume there'd be a similar process to a smaller bore sousa vs. larger bore? Would a "mammoth" sousaphone be worth it, or not?

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:23 pm I have not seen complaints about the Wessex helicons.

I was wanting a helicon, and a friend pointed out that most people would be disappointed that I don't have a sousaphone.

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:23 pm The JP Sousa is top notch...

Bob Tucci had some very good things to say about that horn.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:27 pm Would a "mammoth" sousaphone be worth it, or not?

That's between you and your band(s). I bet if you could identify some potential playing genres, we could have some opinions about what's typical for them.

Obviously, a lot of trad jazz/dixie. I can do bebop walking lines should the need arise, and am wanting to throw together a gigging band with a funk/soul/pop feel with tuba rather than bass. Kinda like Postmodern jukebox, but with a second line outfit but playing modern grooves.

A trad jazz bandleader occasionally hires bands for parades, and sometimes at the end of parades we play on a stage doing trad/2nd line music. I've been playing the 12J on these, but get comments as to how I need to be louder.

I'm sometimes asked to bring my 12J to funk band gigs, and play a few tunes on it rather than bass (playing walking blues bass on it, or Uptown Funk, or a Motown line). While I'd like the functionality to play this stuff, size becomes an issue in a 10 piece band, with a full rhythm section, and I already have my bass gear there...so I might be forced to stick to 12J in this situation.

Then the generic corporate marching band gigs that I used to borrow a fiberglass Yamaha for; but I stupidly turned him down when he offered to sell it to me, so he sold it to someone else for a much better price than anything on the used market right now.

Trad jazz/dixie is too broad to point to make definitive statements, but the rest I think is "4/4" sousaphone territory. Not that I have any idea, but you know, it's the internet here.

From my experience performing with various traditional jazz bands, marching bands, and nola brass bands, I have always liked the Conn 20K. I love the short action valves. I love the sound, whether using a microphone, or just playing "acoustically", you can shape the sound accordingly (capable of sounding like a string bass, subwoofer, or wannabe bass trombone ). I have also found that the intonation quirks are all workable, and the false tones are excellent.

I have also used King BBb's, 2350 variants, HN White Cleveland, etc. They play very well. Good intonation(probably a little better than Conn), very punchy, articulate, when needed, etc. However, not as much "depth" of sound in my opinion when compared with the Conn 20K's. But the same could be said for Conn 36Ks/14Ks. Just not as much "bottom" to my ears, whether amplified or not, especially when not amplified.

Recently, I bought my first EEb sousaphone. It's a beautiful 4 valve HN White King. I have to say that I am very impressed. The intonation, response, and agility are amazing. Certainly not as much bottom/depth, but very easy to get punchy/articulate when you want. Now to retrain my brain for all of the patterns for improv) reading bass lines This might take some work

donn wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:23 pm Trad jazz/dixie is too broad to point to make definitive statements, but the rest I think is "4/4" sousaphone territory. Not that I have any idea, but you know, it's the internet here.

This sounds great. I assume a 3/4 is too small.

Also, I'm 6'5"...so might look funny with a smaller horn.

But the "mammoths with 30" bells I'm coming across. I likely don't want something like that, right?

Dan Tuba wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:24 pm From my experience performing with various traditional jazz bands, marching bands, and nola brass bands, I have always liked the Conn 20K. I love the short action valves. I love the sound, whether using a microphone, or just playing "acoustically", you can shape the sound accordingly (capable of sounding like a string bass, subwoofer, or wannabe bass trombone ). I have also found that the intonation quirks are all workable, and the false tones are excellent.

I have also used King BBb's, 2350 variants, HN White Cleveland, etc. They play very well. Good intonation(probably a little better than Conn), very punchy, articulate, when needed, etc. However, not as much "depth" of sound in my opinion when compared with the Conn 20K's. But the same could be said for Conn 36Ks/14Ks. Just not as much "bottom" to my ears, whether amplified or not, especially when not amplified.

Recently, I bought my first EEb sousaphone. It's a beautiful 4 valve HN White King. I have to say that I am very impressed. The intonation, response, and agility are amazing. Certainly not as much bottom/depth, but very easy to get punchy/articulate when you want. Now to retrain my brain for all of the patterns for improv) reading bass lines This might take some work

Yeah, there's no way I'm going Eb! I have 30 years of Bb fingerings in my head, and couldn't imagine refiguring a ii-V-I on a new horn. I do, however, want to get a bass tuba eventually for legit playing.

As for these horns, what is the going rate for them? It looks like everything on the used market right now is inflated.

I have rarely seen used(not Chinese) 4 valve EEb sousaphones, usually when I find one for sale, they range in price from around $1500 - $2800.

I have played the Wessex EEb sousaphone, and I hate to say it, but it was not very good. It's nowhere near as good as this HN White King EEb sousaphone that I recently purchased. However, from what I understand, Wessex has gone back to the drawing board to improve the quirks of their EEb sousaphone.

As far as EEb bass tubas are concerned, some more affordable options that play well are the Besson 782, Wessex Champion, and the JP 377.

I currently own a Besson 782 EEb. I purchased it brand new for $2500 I don't use it very much only for jobs that I can't cover on my Conn. It plays well enough to cover any solo, bass tuba orchestral, and high acrobatic brass quintet repertoire. I have even tried it a couple times with a wind ensemble that I perform with, and it works well.

Good luck with your search for a sousaphone and bass tuba.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:18 am I assume a 3/4 is too small.

For all I know, I may be the first to use that "4/4" taxonomy on a sousaphone. Probably not, but anyway I regret it very much, so let's not start.

There have been a few small BBb sousaphones, but they aren't common enough that it's likely you'll run across one.

But the "mammoths with 30" bells I'm coming across. I likely don't want something like that, right?

Are you a tuba player? I think it's a common problem that tuba players want things that aren't what they need.

donn wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:25 amAre you a tuba player? I think it's a common problem that tuba players want things that aren't what they need.

Guess that makes me a tuba player! I am very competent on tuba, and combine that with my ability to improvise basslines across the board of genres, a sousaphone just makes sense at this point.

40K waiting for cleanup. If you have the elbow grease, this would work, although I can tell you from experience of playing a 38K, they weigh @35lbs, and even with the shoulder plate to help distribute the load, they do get heavy. But they have great tone and intonation, and once you carefully polish the gold-wash bell, it looks great.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1829
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274727607291

When I was in high school then college I would always volunteer to play the brass Sousaphones and the other people in the section thought that I was a bit crazy because of this. It was not about the sound (although that was what most of the people thought), I found that the fiberglass Sousaphones would catch the wind much more easily than the brass ones. I did not like marching on a windy day with a wind catcher.

Best,
Mark

P.S.
I do like the sound of a brass Sousaphone better than fiberglass but either can sound good in the right hands.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:07 pm 40K waiting for cleanup. If you have the elbow grease, this would work, although I can tell you from experience of playing a 38K, they weigh @35lbs, and even with the shoulder plate to help distribute the load, they do get heavy. But they have great tone and intonation, and once you carefully polish the gold-wash bell, it looks great.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1829
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274727607291

I noticed that one, and thought about it. It's partly why I asked. I feel, though, that I should be able to get a very good player for half the price, including shipping. And the few times I've played older Conns (probably 20K at the theme parks), they killed my shoulder after the day.

Someone locally is trying to sell a 36k in non-playing condition for $1100. He won't even let me check out the horn before buying. "You purchase the horn, you can come look at it, then take it home." I told him a fiberglass horn in non playing condition is nowhere near what he's asking for it, but it hasn't changed his mind.

Did you happen to see this one? Buescher-York Helicon Tuba Key of BBb? All day drive one way, and it isn't guaranteed to be ideal - the lesser bell flare makes it more directional, and the direction isn't likely the one you want. At least this one is detachable, and the bell doesn't stick out as far as the other American designs, so you're less likely to knock people over who make the mistake of getting too close to your left side.