TubaForum.net

I am always grateful to have a place to dump my random musical thoughts. So. I continue to thank you all. Today's rambles are about Bach.

I've been spending a lot (A...LOT...) of time with the 4th cello suite recently. On both my CC and F tubas, trying out different octaves, styles, and philosophies. There is a lot of tension these days being caused by proponents of historically informed practice. People will knee-jerk write off a performance because it's baroque and the performer dares to show expression. Or in the lute world, you can always find a naysayer who will write off a brilliant performance because (gasp) the performer used a SINGLE STRUNG LUTE. The horror. Or my favorite: I'd would like it better if the instrument were strung in gut.

The shame of it is that it takes what should be a very interesting and enjoyable discussion and makes it adversarial. And it means that people are being made to feel like they can't simply enjoy something that is done well because it's Not Right.

As an example, these are both incredible performances:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCV_mqCTNtU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spat2faTLwg&t=336s

You may not agree with one or the other, but they are both deadly serious, well thought-out, and masterfully executed. They should both simply be enjoyed and appreciated. And they can be critiqued or disagreed with without being criticized. Both performers are absolutely deserving of that respect.

As is everyone else who puts on a well thought-out, serious, practiced performance, even if it isn't world class.

Bringing this back to the tuba world, I found these recordings to be very instructive in how I approached the suite, especially the Prelude. The reason is that I adore the Netherlands performance, played on a period instrument and in a way generally accepted to be closer to how it would have been performed in Bach's time. However, it is not achievable on tuba. Gut strings and a baroque bow produce a resonance that lends itself to lighter and quicker performance that a tuba isn't suited to achieve. I can try that in my practice room, but it wouldn't be a convincing performance in a hall. And a tuba player runs the risk of playing without enough air or support and sacrificing a rich sound to try to get to this sort of performance. There is a degree under which a tuba can't be convincingly muffled.

The second recording, on a modern cello, played with an acceptance of the projection and power of the modern instrument is just as brilliant of a performance and much more achievable when translated to tuba.

I'm sitting here this morning as an attorney who spends a great deal of time speaking to juries, comparing tuba playing to trial work. I've seen incredible trial lawyers from Georgia do their thing. As much as I'd like to be able to conduct trials that way, as a New Englander, I can't. I simply can't. I can be just as effective and get the same verdicts, but I have to accept who I am and get there my own way.

As tuba players, I think we need to have the same thought process - What can I achieve as myself on my instrument? That will end up being the most effective performance.

Deep thinking is really good.
Overthinking might not be so good.

Some of the most severe critics are often those who are incapable of demonstrating anything close to as good as that which they criticize.

I enjoyed reading your post (no criticism).

A similar debate happened a few months ago on the trombone forum, and the argument ranged from the performer's moral standing to the viability of the trombone itself to play Bach at all. I don't think the people making these arguments could hear themselves, because if that thinking prevailed, we would all just give up everything, and jump off a bridge (although it would have to be an appropriate bridge for the particular angst each suicide was portraying...)

Just a symptom of society gone nuts. Somewhere some of us fell off the track and only consider one idea. Anything else, better or not, is not only bad but somehow evil. Extremism in its most benign. There isn't room for multiple opinions or points of view.

Music - old music in particular - isn't worth much if you can't reinterpret it and see what else there is to discover in it. Sometimes you try and fail or maybe not fail, but just don't make the best ever, which is still better than just criticizing without even trying. Cello suites on trombone are awkward, but the music is so wonderful that you have to try to make it work. Yes, it sounds different than Rostropovich, Casals or Ma, but it is still great music.

Even dares to use multiphonics for the final double-stop note

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqvapAxXsVE

It's no different an argument than a cover band playing pop/rock songs with different instrumentation. For example, a regional band, the Hillbenders, a bluegrass band, friends of mine, completely re-did the Who's Tommy album as a bluegrass album, to great critical success, including getting to meet Pete Townsend (who you may recall, is also a banjo player - listen to "Squeezebox.) Here's the video to their rendition of "Pinball Wizard."



It is good to study the music in its original context and instrumentation, but then go make music with the music.

I wonder if we sometimes get a kind of superficial sense of the issue here. It seems like sort of an antiquarian fetish about doing stuff purely for the sake of historical authenticity, but ... that Bach guy was really something, you know what I mean? And while I've read that those cello suites were exercises, I don't think I'm endowing them with imaginary virtues, there's some of that Bach genius in there.

The other dismissive thing I've read, and this is about Bach's work in general and it's just morons talking, is that it's colorless cerebral architecture with no sentiment, a sort of musical mathematics. That's a terrible mistake, but there's some truth in it at a superficial level. Maybe it's kind of like the way photographers often prefer to work in black and white. It isn't wrong to love color and build your art around it, but in black and white they're just going for something else. With Bach, you get that something else, or you're just in it for the exercise.

I'm sure much of the historical authenticity stuff is just that, and as irrelevant as it could be to musical meaning, and to the extent it's a formula for hitting the mark with Bach - because he was writing for this instrument and they played it that way etc., we're more likely to express the intention - that's almost as bad. But in a very similar way, to get to the point, I find that "expressive" histrionics get in the way of enjoying the cello suites. That doesn't mean that the page must be played in a neutral way, it's just about being sensitive to what's in there, and not larding over it. For me, Yo Yo Ma gets it and puts it forth without a doubt. A couple others, including Casals, might ... take more listening to fully appreciate. But whether they play it straight or not, the point is whether they manage to get the soul out. I don't see how they could possibly manage it and throw in the "expressive" rubato etc. gimmicks too, but they're all far beyond my level, so ... what seems to me like a miracle may be really quite possible.

iiipopes wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 9:14 am It's no different an argument than a cover band playing pop/rock songs with different instrumentation. For example, a regional band, the Hillbenders, a bluegrass band, friends of mine, completely re-did the Who's Tommy album as a bluegrass album, to great critical success, including getting to meet Pete Townsend (who you may recall, is also a banjo player - listen to "Squeezebox.) Here's the video to their rendition of "Pinball Wizard."

That was good, an especially nice vocalist, I was hoping they would Bluegrass it up more as opposed to just swapping out Bluegrass instruments and covering the song.

Speaking of music vs. reality...

I can barely watch some music videos, because the MUSIC doesn't match the VIDEO. I'm not talking about lips and words (which is bad enough) but awesome sound quality in an environment that makes no sense.

The video linked here, with all those guys jammed around 1 microphone and the vocals sound perfect, etc... it's just not realistic. I'll watch the video or listen to the audio, but it can't be both. Even worse, some of those outdoor German brass ensemble videos, where they are standing outside... and the audio is perfect, crisp, has reverb... and there are zero microphones or recording equipment within 100 feet of them. It's not "fake" necessarily, because the musicians ARE playing in the video and the audio. It's just two different video/audio instances being mashed up. It drives me crazy!

Re. the OP's observation that many "academic musicians" attack "performing musicians" for absolutely stupid reasons:

The Music World has a huge number of Doctors who only hold these degrees because they could not find a way to make a living after their BM and needed to forestall loan repayments. An alarmingly high number of these could not find work after earning the BM because they are idiots. I have had to work with (or for) a lot of Doctors of Music who are about as smart, clever, original, informed, and educated as toe jam. Frequently these are the ones who *insist* that you address them as "Doctor" even in private. They are terrible at what they do, so they attack the work of others who have some originalty, creativity, talent, and a freaking clue. This makes these losers feel more important. When gathered in groups these people actually speak as though they are musical royalty. It really is disgusting to have to mingle with these people, but in many cases it is absolutely a political imperative. This is one of the aspects of being a professor or a performer that no one will speak about to you as you pursue your education: frequently the idiots work the system better (survival instincts are very powerful) and survive longer or rise to power. In the field of music specifically there are more Frank Burns types than Hawkeye Pierce types. Since I have zero interaction with the ivory tower clan I can say this because they cannot screw with me. I have, however, seen this to be the case in many schools and within many musical "societies". Frequently it is the same pack who drives the stupidly thought out "publish or perish" idea of being a professor.

Change my mind.

I have also worked with some amazing DMA holders. In fact, the majority of DMA holders with whom I have worked fall into this category. However, it seems to me that Music is the hiding place for more frauds than any other field.

Again, change my mind.

If you always deflect from your own shortcomings or your own pedestrian thoughts by attacking the work of your betters you can hide out for many years.

Most of us here know of a person who demands you call him "Doctor", who personally attacks others in order to deflect detection as a fraud, and that has nothing original to contribute to the field of music.

Once again: Change my mind.

the elephant wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 11:40 am ...it seems to me that Music is the hiding place for more frauds than any other field.

Again, change my mind.

Higher education.

And you may call me Maestro!!

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 11:46 am

the elephant wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 11:40 am ...it seems to me that Music is the hiding place for more frauds than any other field.

Again, change my mind.

Higher education.

And you may call me Maestro!!

Things like historical practice are perfect for those people - You don't need an ounce of musicality. You simply need to memorize rules and call out when they're not met.

It is also easier to say you don't like something and feel superior than say you like it and open yourself up to being told by someone else they are superior to you because they find fault in it.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 11:54 amIt is also easier to say you don't like something and feel superior than say you like it and open yourself up to being told by someone else they are superior to you because they find fault in it.

BINGO! This is the specific problem from which the academic side of music has been eroded for many decades, each decade becoming more aberrant with creativity being actively stifled by those who cannot actually *do* anything at a high level. (I can't actually PLAY my horn, so I MUST PUBLISH LOTS OF ARTICLES!!!)

I know of one midwestern (now retired) horn professor who could not make a name for herself to further her quest to become a tenured, full professor at her institution (and to feed her monstrous ego by becoming "famous" as it were). She helped lead the charge into "period-correct natural horn performance". She wrote a lot, and then bashed all those who decided to try and make a name for themselves in this performance and pedagogical niche; it had some potential for side money and "laudatory glory" for a few, if they worked the system correctly and hard enough. Unfortunately for her, she eventually had to back up her poisoned pen with her own album, which was met with absolute silence from the unwashed masses of people she believed would be her "natural horn posse". No real plaudits or criticisms came from this work. There were a few tepid reviews, and she was pretty much finished within that tiny world in which she believed she could hide (and bully others into respecting her).

Today she is pretty much a no one in the Horn world.

Goody for her. Another academic fraud found out and dispensed with.

Unfortunately, people like her seem to be thriving within the musical world today. I wish all the academician types who were never actually GOOD at being a musician (rather than using their magical Doctorate to intimidate others into saying they are good) would seek employment within the world of Pop Music production and management. I think they might do well with people like Justin Bieber.

Maybe…?

donn wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 9:26 am
I wonder if we sometimes get a kind of superficial sense of the issue here. It seems like sort of an antiquarian fetish about doing stuff purely for the sake of historical authenticity, but ... that Bach guy was really something, you know what I mean? And while I've read that those cello suites were exercises, I don't think I'm endowing them with imaginary virtues, there's some of that Bach genius in there.

The more I play the prelude to #4 (and the rest of the suite), the more genius I see in it. The prelude strikes me the same way that Bruckner does, in that it is essentially a harmonic melody. There isn't one melodic voice, but through the harmonic progression, every voice works together to create a musical line. Immensely satisfying to play. And to your later point - I firmly believe it is worth exploring in a lot of different ways.

Much of the bread and butter of this crowd is snippets of information discovered (and written about) by OTHERS. That stuff is hashed and rehashed to the point of silliness, because in the end MOST OF WHAT IS PUT INTO THESE BOOKS IS SURMISE AND PLAIN, OLD GUESSWORK.

Well, MY research and MY guesswork is just as valid, and they tell me that JS Bach would be tickled to death to know that hundreds of years after he ginned out his products for his patrons that SO MANY HUMANS actually know who he was, love his music, and strive to understand how he would have liked us to render it. I also surmise that he would be happy to hear his music interpreted in thousands of different ways, with ideas and creativity leading what he wrote to all sorts of different performances, to include — but by no means be limited to — how he envisioned them sounding.

I even suspect that Bach would think that his cello suites being played well by a proficient and musical tuba player this many years after he wrote the notes would be pretty darn cool. I think he was intelligent and mature enough to understand that his notes would affect others in different ways, and he would be accepting and WELCOMING to these different interpretations. He would *also* like that we investigate to see if we can figure out how they were performed by him or his musicians. It's all good, you overly-severe, creatively-limited academic dunces! Stop being such prigs! HAHAHA!!!

The Bach oboe d'amore concerto (and someone can correct me, if I'm wrong) is only ASSUMED to have been written for that instrument.

@the elephant Brutal!!

There are many pieces of string music I love and want to play. A few I have written out for brass quintet, etc. I am the first to admit that they don't sound nearly as good to my ear as the original versions.

However, short of learning to play one of them there stringy instruments, this is as close as I'm going to get and I enjoy experiencing these pieces from the playing side of things rather than just from the listening side of things.

If an audience wants to listen to them, great. If they don't, that is fine too. The trick is discerning which way an audience will fall before actually putting that issue to the test!

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 1:26 pm @the elephant Brutal!!

Brutally TRUE.

While the vast majority of Doctors of Musical Arts (etc.) are great at what they do, there is this very visible subpopulation of frauds who frequently use bombast to make folks look the other way. Collectively, we tend to accept their tactics, nod, and say, "We,, okay then," and move on. But enough youngsters on the tenure track take these people seriously, and some careers have been damaged by these supreme self-preservationists.

It makes me sick to see a known moron and rat be lauded by those who haven't a clue. "I'm not sure what he said, but hear, hear!"

The field of "academic music" (that is more focused on writing about how terrible or "misguided" others might or might not be, rather than writing about original findings from their own fresh research) has had a problem with this for some time, now. A lot of schools seem to be more of an Attitude Factory than producers of academicians with outstanding knowledge backed by outstanding research skills. It used to be geared toward the student producing a dissertation — a highly detailed and annotated BOOK — that others will seek out and use as a source others will seek out and learn from. Now it is all about producing a dissertation that is about how different kinds of ink affected the writing styles of composers in central France between May of 1623 and June of 1627 during the Great Ink Wars when composers had to grind and make their own inks.

WHO CARES?

Frank Zappa was a man for whom I held great respect. However, his infamous quote “All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff,” is incorrect. It is also incorrect that all the good research topics have been documented in dissertations. Some of the dissertation topics approved today REEK of a lack of creativity and… well… desperation on the part of the student and a laziness on the part of the many professors who approve of such dreck.

Sorry. I have a real bone to pick with some of this nonsense due to enough personal experience working with some of these intellectually lazy professors and their cookie-cutter DMA candidate lemmings over the past 35 years that I can only smile and shake my head. I am sometimes sad that I never decided to pursue a DMA, but I have found that I know much more than a lot of Doctors about certain aspects of music and I have none of the freaky quirks that a job imparts to one seeking tenure and a full professorship.

We have been off course for a long time. I just play the tuba, work on cars, and throw darts. I am, by and large, very happy to not be a part of "that crowd" as I can still hang out and shoot the breeze at a very high level with GOOD professors who can teach AND research AND review materials AND be very cool people who are fun to spend time with. The last time I remember having to waste an evening with one of the Ivory Tower Marx Brothers I remember smiling into my beverage a lot and checking out early. The conversation was all about how terrible so-and-so's solo album featuring a period 19th century string orchestra (using gut strings and all the reinforcements added over time to handle the stresses of modern, steel strings and higher tuning, and tuned to A=415 Hz or some such) was a travesty because on this one piece vibrato was used, and that modern bows were used on another track. Yeah, whatever, man. I'm about to scoot on over to the Dutchman Bar to throw some darts and wast the taste of this silly punch out of my mouth with a cold one.

I have now wasted a good part of my afternoon today bashing others for bashing others. However, I did not mention any names, I did not bash specific papers. (You might be surprised by how many dissertations I read, how many journals I subscribe to, etc.) I just bashed on that irritating personality type who desire to be respected, cannot find work, and who claw their way up the ladder by being an "Akademischer Arschloch".

I'm out. I hope I did not start any fires, but oh, well. These are my observations based on working with or around these musical and academic liabilities for about 35 years. I wish all the professors in our field were competent and not terribe human beings, but I really don't care enough to try and do anything about it from the outside; that would be a complete waste of time and effort. So I poke fun.

Time for supper. It'S FRIDAY NIGHT! Y'all go have some fun. I think the OP nailed this topic. Great post.

Cheers!

I can play stuff at A=415, simply by playing it a semitone lower...but how many people - today - have taught themselves to transpose?

I'm not the best at it but I've discovered that - when SIGHT-transposing (ie. not playing some passage that has been practiced thousands of times, while also practicing transposing it) - my "sorta-OK" is no worse than some full-time orchestra horn players' "sorta-OK".

...and I can even tune to intervals (as was done years ago) - instead of playing in equal temperament. I do this whenever playing chordal/tonal music in ensembles (which don't involve a prominent keyboard instrument).

yeah...ANY person (when alive) likes to believe that they are going to have some sort of "legacy".
more brutal truth: After they're dead, they don't much care about anything in particular.

bloke "I'm only a bloke."

@the elephant Play darts??

My HS buddy, who your rants often remind me of, recently sent me the link to the 80s classic; Tom Goes to the Bar (Short Subject)

https://youtu.be/JBoI8ukXXPQ