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Ok, so this hasn't been "my world" in many years, if ever...

But I'm wondering what might be a reasonable short-ish-list of large BBb tuba options, with these parameters:

* 4 front-action pistons
* One-piece upright bell
* Bigger (to much bigger) than 4/4
* Made in America (ok -- Europe is fine too, but there may not be so many of these)
* $5,000 or so
* Non-crappy intonation

Seems like a LOT of tubas fail one of more of these criteria... top action, recording bell, fully restored and $10k, crappy intonation... And probably first two bullet points cancel out a LOT of my options. And honestly, maybe the newer King 2341 could fit the description too, but I've heard shaky reports on quality, intonation, and "meh" tone/sound quality.

Any thoughts on what a short-list could be for this?

You should take a look at the Wessex Grand.

Me and my Teacher prefer this one over the hand made one. Last time I was at the showroom the guy said it was based on a Martin, But I thought it was bigger and heavier. Still a great playing tuba.

Good luck in your search!

Brett,
If you want a full 6/4 size then I can heartily recommend the 345 Holton (no surprise there). I'm glad mine is where it is, but I still miss the incredible sound. I played the big Conns for years way back when and liked them a lot; if you like your 20 you'll probably like the front/upright model.
I have to say that I was very impressed with the 2341 I played for so long. I hope you can get to try one or two sometime - to me it felt and sounded very much like a baby BAT, and at about 8+ lbs lighter was quite easy to maneuver and transport. I never had a problem with the sound, the intonation, or the 'presence'. Mouthpiece selection could mean a lot. The Eastman version should be more of the same; if Rick Denney thinks they're fine, that's a good endorsement right there.
I have a line on the 2341 I nearly bought and will send you a pm with info.
Happy hunting!
Tim

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:21 am Any thoughts on what a short-list could be for this?

Vintage Holton, Martin, York, maybe a Kanstul if you can find one under $5K. Kings are possible, but will be tough to find a one-piece since they're much less common, i.e. King 1216, but I think you'd still call it 4/4 like the current 2341. If you shift off of MUSA, you might look at the Yorkazo at Mack Brass since it's a US-inspired model.

Excluding the price constraint:

Fafner with pistons

Excluding the price and intonation constraints:

2165 with BBb slides

Including Mainland China options:

ZO BBb
BMB 6/4 BBb
Wessex something or other

MN_TimTuba wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:19 am Brett,
If you want a full 6/4 size then I can heartily recommend the 345 Holton (no surprise there). I'm glad mine is where it is, but I still miss the incredible sound. I played the big Conns for years way back when and liked them a lot; if you like your 20 you'll probably like the front/upright model.
I have to say that I was very impressed with the 2341 I played for so long. I hope you can get to try one or two sometime - to me it felt and sounded very much like a baby BAT, and at about 8+ lbs lighter was quite easy to maneuver and transport. I never had a problem with the sound, the intonation, or the 'presence'. Mouthpiece selection could mean a lot. The Eastman version should be more of the same; if Rick Denney thinks they're fine, that's a good endorsement right there.
I have a line on the 2341 I nearly bought and will send you a pm with info.
Happy hunting!
Tim

Tim's comments about the 2341 model are spot on. I purchased one through Baltimore Brass two years ago. It is very much like a "Baby Bat". The sound is full and strong, the intonation is fine and it blends very well in the two bands that I play it in. I think either a recording bell or an upright King with four valves would serve you very well.

Holton 345
Wessex Grand
Kanstul Grand BBb
Kanstul 33 (4/4, but nice round BBb sound)
Miraphone 1291 (might possibly find one near $5K)
Willson 3100
Martin
King 2341 (new model) - 4/4 but sports a pretty big sound, excellent intonation, easy to hold, easy to play.
If you find a new piston Fafner at a ridiculously low price, don't be stupid like I was and pass it up.
Wessex Prokofiev - not near $5K, but it is a fantastic tuba. Tony Clements is selling his. Not sure of price - might be closer to your budget than you think. Maybe not.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:21 am Ok, so this hasn't been "my world" in many years, if ever...

But I'm wondering what might be a reasonable short-ish-list of large BBb tuba options, with these parameters:

* 4 front-action pistons
* One-piece upright bell
* Bigger (to much bigger) than 4/4
* Made in America (ok -- Europe is fine too, but there may not be so many of these)
* $5,000 or so
* Non-crappy intonation

Seems like a LOT of tubas fail one of more of these criteria... top action, recording bell, fully restored and $10k, crappy intonation... And probably first two bullet points cancel out a LOT of my options. And honestly, maybe the newer King 2341 could fit the description too, but I've heard shaky reports on quality, intonation, and "meh" tone/sound quality.

Any thoughts on what a short-list could be for this?

A King 2341 in good repair is a really really really good tuba regardless of whether it's the removable bell or fixed bell version.

Surely you are aware of the Holton which bloke is fixing up to sell.

If I recall, you sold a big CC tuba (Neptune maybe?) which didn't fit in your car. Do you still have the same car? Wouldn't you have the same issue with a large BBb?

Thanks for the input, everyone!

@cjk , yes, same car... It'll fit up to about a 20" bell. The Neptune was 20.5" and suuuuper tight. Could be made to work, but what a hassle. That was 6 years ago, wow.

The 2341 is high on the list, although not quite as "big" as is possible... But that's okay.

Fully aware of Joe's Holton, but the price is out of budget.

I wish the Kanstul tubas were a better option, but they are scarce and quality is inconsistent (as I've heard it, they simply didn't make enough of them to fully refine them and hit their stride).

German BBbs are an option too, the Miraphone 190, PT-1, and the GR-51 or 55 (should they ever be available used.. not often...). Or my friend's MW 197 would be magic as well. But, above budget, and hard to get it to Minnesota.

There's a Conn 36J that's been on eBay forever. I've never heard much good about them though, some good notes some bad notes... Which means for regular use, no thanks!

Really not interested in Chinese tubas.

Thanks!!

Anyone want to un-scare me from the .687 bore of the 2341? Am I going to overblow it? Or is the smaller bore less of an issue with the piston horns, given the shorter leadpipe?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:28 pm Anyone want to un-scare me from the .687 bore of the 2341? Am I going to overblow it? Or is the smaller bore less of an issue with the piston horns, given the shorter leadpipe?

Brett,
After 30 years on my BAT, I had zero trouble with the smaller King bore. Yes, you can make it "splatt", but same can be said for the 6/4 horns. With energy, control, and a good mouthpiece it wasn't an issue in the slightest. Lots of sousas were built with similar bore size, and they are always heard on the football field.
There are always times when I'm the only tuba; on the Holton there was no issue, on the King there was no issue. I do play ... uh...aggressively with some energy, but I believe that you do as well. I wouldn't sweat it in the least.
If you can get to my buddy's place you can test drive his in a large shop with high ceiling, or take it outdoors and play over the lake. Maybe you'll call in a moose!
Tim

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:28 pm Anyone want to un-scare me from the .687 bore of the 2341? Am I going to overblow it? Or is the smaller bore less of an issue with the piston horns, given the shorter leadpipe?

The only real answer to that is to locate one and go play it.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:28 pm Anyone want to un-scare me from the .687 bore of the 2341? Am I going to overblow it? Or is the smaller bore less of an issue with the piston horns, given the shorter leadpipe?

I don't think you'll overblow it, but it won't lay down the big hammer quite as easily as a BAT, and it won't have that 6/4 presence. Then again, I have some recordings of Ed Firth with his 2341 in orchestra that, while not huge/pillowy, 6/4, Holton-esque, are most certainly NOT lacking in tuba.

If you are considering German rotary tubas, the 190 is a good option. The 191, while not as kaiser-ish, has a killer low range. The GR 51 and GR 55 are nice tubas, but not in your price range unless you find the rare used one for sale. Not sure that you'd consider one, but the Eastman 562 is an excellent tuba with very good intonation, clear high range, and solid low range that is NOT 4/4, and a good used one is well within your budget. Ask me how I know...

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:53 pm
The 191, while not as kaiser-ish, has a killer low range.

Brett,
Yes. If you travel N, be sure to stop and play mine. The granny low range is THERE.
Good luck!
Tim

cjk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:48 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:28 pm Anyone want to un-scare me from the .687 bore of the 2341? Am I going to overblow it? Or is the smaller bore less of an issue with the piston horns, given the shorter leadpipe?

The only real answer to that is to locate one and go play it.

What the hell kind of answer is that!

But really, thanks everyone for the help!

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:21 am Ok, so this hasn't been "my world" in many years, if ever...

But I'm wondering what might be a reasonable short-ish-list of large BBb tuba options, with these parameters:

* 4 front-action pistons
* One-piece upright bell
* Bigger (to much bigger) than 4/4
* Made in America (ok -- Europe is fine too, but there may not be so many of these)
* $5,000 or so
* Non-crappy intonation

Seems like a LOT of tubas fail one of more of these criteria... top action, recording bell, fully restored and $10k, crappy intonation... And probably first two bullet points cancel out a LOT of my options. And honestly, maybe the newer King 2341 could fit the description too, but I've heard shaky reports on quality, intonation, and "meh" tone/sound quality.

Any thoughts on what a short-list could be for this?

I wouldn't put the new King 2341 body style in there anywhere. It's barely 4/4 (sure thick bell and bows but 34.5'' tall feel 3/4 to me). Intonation was fine on the one I owned for a bit, and tone was good.

...

As for valve bore size ... I bet if you were to try a Kanstul 900 next to a King 2341, you'd be convinced it isn't about valve bore size. Just guessing, though.

My two big BBb tubas sound very different, both music to my ear. Do you like a real dark sound, or more colorful overtone series?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:23 pm
What the hell kind of answer is that!

You didn’t say what your instructor recommended or if it were a silver or lacquer model, so…

I gravitate more towards dark sounds, more than colorful. Projection vs presence, when possible... athough the two are so closely related when it comes to the big big tubas.

@peterbas where are those GR-55's?!