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yep...another two-fer...

I can't get started on this/these until I plow through a bunch of school-owned stuff, and (well...) finish the two Holton 345's as well as finishing up some (close-to-ready) for-sale tubas and some individually-owned smaller brass. (Yes, I actually repair trumpets, horns, trombones, and saxophones.)

This time, it's TWO Miraphone model 84 (aka "184") B-flat tubas.

Once again, one belongs to a customer, one belongs to us, and the one that belongs to us will be sold, once these restorations are completed.

I don't plan on refinishing either instrument. I probably will refinish and shoot clear on the the BOTTOM BOW of the customer-owned 84-B, and I will probably shine up and shoot clear on the BELL of the 84-B that we own.

Here are some "before" pictures of the customer-owned instrument.
Someone apparently (??) played a high-scoring game of basketball with it, but the really positive things are that the finish is original (all the metal is here) and there are no cracks. It's going to need a #4 rotor body repair or replacement, a new "keel" (on the bottom), the mouthpipe receiver is missing, and I'm going to take the lazy way and just put a new bottom bow cap on it. If I remember to edit my parts order from Miraphone (which includes stuff for BOTH of these instruments), I'm going to go ahead and order a couple of carriage rods...or (??) I guess I could just pull some 3mm steel rod down from the wall, cut it to length, and tap the two ends with 3mm threads; that's not exactly "rocket science". It's going to be a really handsome and fine-playing instrument and (with the missing parts replaced) will actually weigh MORE (rather than - with many slick-outs: less) than it currently weighs, when the project is completed.






When I pull the bloke-and-Mrs.-bloke-owned one down out of storage, I'll show pictures of it, as well.
As with the 345's, the one in storage isn't as distressed as this customer instrument, and the bell is ready to go.

Nice. I’ve never played one of those (don’t think I’ve seen one in the flesh), but the thought is appealing.

General playing characteristics?

Similar scale to a 186?

Do they get bark-ie?

Low register pretty respectable?

all good...just a longer version - compared to the C instruments you've likely played, and with all the same characteristics.

I really MUST start making a serious attempt at restoring the attic hoard, and getting that stuff (in slicked-out condition) into the hands of people who will enjoy it.
Doing "twin-spin" restorations, maybe (??) is a way to encourage myself to get them done.
I CANNOT be like those people on the "American Pickers" fake/reality show (with giant warehouses full, but who only manage sell one or two things out of them)."

York-aholic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:38 pm Nice. I’ve never played one of those (don’t think I’ve seen one in the flesh), but the thought is appealing.

General playing characteristics?

Similar scale to a 186?

Do they get bark-ie?

Low register pretty respectable?

I was just thinking that I need to find an instrument that I have that needs fixing up, that you have it’s twin in your attic of horns.

Every time I have mentioned anything up there, it has created a demand for those things - and they’re not ready to sell, so all that occurs is that one or more people end up being frustrated or disappointed.

York-aholic wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:47 pm I was just thinking that I need to find an instrument that I have that needs fixing up, that you have it’s twin in your attic of horns.

I’m of the assumption that anything I have that needs fixing, will quite naturally have a twin in your attic!

Early on, I sold off the unfinished “old York“ projects, and I only have a few parts for Martin instruments...
...Completely surprising myself, though, (as seen recently) I bought a salvage “old Holton“ - that was extremely similar to an “old York“ - and souped it all up...and didn’t even hacksaw it down to C .

York-aholic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:38 am I’m of the assumption that anything I have that needs fixing, will quite naturally have a twin in your attic!

Great Old Man Tubas, yes??

I'd like to know how it plays when you're done with it.

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:47 am I'd like to know how it plays when you're done with it.

If you're thinking of buying it...
I can already tell you: "It's amazing."

Three Valves wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:46 am Great Old Man Tubas, yes??

It depends on the definition:

Often, "old man tubas" seem to be "I'm shopping for a tuba that weighs 2-1/2 pounds less than the one I currently own, even though I myself am 40 pounds overweight" tubas, and then, what is purchased ends up weighing the-same-or-more, but is shinier than was the previously-owned one.

Another definition is "more sound for less effort", and - if it's more "really-easy-to-play-in-tune additional sound for less effort", that tends to be sorta expensive.

Model 84 tubas, mostly, tend to be "more concise-sounding-and-easier-to-pick-their-sonority-out-of-the-ensemble" tubas...which is probably why quite a few people like to use them in brass quintets.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:51 am

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:47 am I'd like to know how it plays when you're done with it.

If you're thinking of buying it...
I can already tell you: "It's amazing."

I knew you would say that, and it darned well better be!

Doc visiting blokeplace = Here... take my money! (And my supportive wife doesn't help matters much - "If you need it, buy it.")

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:18 am "If you need it, buy it.")

Need sure is a great word:

As in

A) literally, as in life or death
B) figuratively, as in "I need it to make my life easier". Many of my tools fall into this category.
C) as in "I need this tuba, so as not to be a sour pus for the next week and a half".

York-aholic wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:44 pm

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:18 am "If you need it, buy it.")

Need sure is a great word:

As in

A) literally, as in life or death
B) figuratively, as in "I need it to make my life easier". Many of my tools fall into this category.
C) as in "I need this tuba, so as not to be a sour pus for the next week and a half".

Depending on the day of the week, she might agree with any or all of those reasons.

As long as I don't sink the ship, she doesn't care (the ship is safe enough at its current course). And when a certain someone wanted a new electric piano, she got one. And all the piano music she desires. Tends to work out alright. Well, just as long as I bust my @$$ working 80-90hrs a week.

Doc wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:52 pm
Depending on the day of the week, she might agree with any or all of those reasons.

As long as I don't sink the ship, she doesn't care (the ship is safe enough at its current course). And when a certain someone wanted a new electric piano, she got one. And all the piano music she desires. Tends to work out alright. Well, just as long as I bust my @$$ working 80-90hrs a week.

My better half is similar to yours @Doc. As long as I don't drive us into the poor house, I'm usually okay. Given that we have two horses that are her hobby (and me being manual labor out at the horse barn), and that horse = money pit, she is pretty understanding.

Since the customer-owned Holton 345 is so close to being finished – and that person (I’m sure) cannot come this week to pick it up, I believe I might set it aside just a few days and see what I can get done on this customer-owned 184 B-flat, because that entire family is coming to visit us on New Year’s Eve, and it would be nice to be able to just hand the instrument off all repaired…and then he would have a new toy to play with before he has to go back to teaching, next semester.

I could type more blather HERE...
...OR, I could pour one last huge (morning) cup of coffee (#3), head out there, see if I can get that new rotor body lapped into the #4 casing, and then commence to pulling it apart - for dent removal.

Candidly...
One of my least-favorite things is to receive a rotor BODY from a manufacturer and fit it into a PREEXISTING rotor casing.

It's even worse when the casing was made a half century ago, and the rotor dimensions and tapers have changed.

As I've admitted, I eschew Starrett/Brown & Sharpe (etc.) calipers, because I knock calipers on the floor too often to buy/use stuff like that...

This 184 featured a #4 rotor which was FINE, but had a broken-off stem. I've re-stemmed quite a few rotors (both "good enough for schools", and "good"), but - when "good" - I've had to borrow someone's else lathe, because - well - mine is an old SEARS-like ("Atlas") lathe, and isn't perfect-perfect-perfect (as far as being absolutely free of off-center "travel"). I have two local friend with amazing lathes, but - thus far - have never asked if I could use them, so I really didn't wish to do that. I sent the rotor body off to Miraphone for repair...but (yup) the USPS LOST it...

...so I measured with my "Harbor&Freight" calipers - reporting all the dimensions to Christian (Miraphone) who made me a NEW rotor body.
I got the replacement rotor body fitting (partially) into the casing (about as good as one might expect)...

...so today (before any dent removal) I tackled THIS first because - without this rotor body in the #4 casing - what's the point of removing dents?

This went WELL...it contacted (shiny - at that end, during the lapping-in process) the large-end of the rotor body first, and (when it nearly was fitting) the small end. I'm pretty proud of the job, because the rotor contact surface is less scuffed (like "no cut lines whatsover" than most factory-fit tuba rotor bodies.

The most difficult part is when the rotor body fits all the way up into the casing, and the friction fit bearing is then installed (because the ENTIRE ROTOR BODY must be ON CENTER and STILL TURN (as "fitting a rotor body" always can involve a very tiny bit of wobble). Per always, it didn't turn at first, but it didn't take long for me to get it fitting WITH the bearing in place AND driven home. I'm also a bit proud that it's NOT sticking...but it almost seems to fit "too well"...ie. it feels as though if the tiniest bit of trash got between the rotor and casing it could hang, as - from the finger paddle - it almost feels as though ALL of the rotor-body surfaces are precision-fitting as much as the end-bearings are fitting. (In the past - and a search shows me that they are still in business, there was a custom [French] horn maker who used not-yet-fit-to-the-casings Eastlake rotors and SUPER-CLOSE fit them into the casings, and I don't want this one rotor to be an "everything must be absolutely perfect" as his rotors [were].)

Anyway...
It WORKS !!!

As can be seen the "house-shaped" (5-sided) hole in the stop arm is a couple of thousandths of an inch smaller than the dimensions on the rotor body that Miraphone sent me, so a little bit of filing is going to be required - in order for this half-century-old stop-arm to fit down on this newly-manufactured rotor stem.



On - then - to repairing the smashed bell, smashed outer bows, picking over smaller stuff, and deciding when I've done enough (as no specific instructions were given, but only a "Please call me if the repairs must cost over $XXXX") to tell this person that they will be happy with this instrument.

Nice job!

I enjoy reviving rotary valves. I wish it was as easy to do this to old piston valves, but a lot of piston issues center around lost material that can only be plated back on. Rotors are more fun because of this.

I am assuming this is an 18 mm valve…

I have this stupid desire to build a section using Miraphone sizes rather than typical mm or half-mm sizes. The "official" bores of the valves are a bit different than the *very* specific (and devoid of advertising numbers "rounding") listed slide tubing bores that I have listed here, but I would want to use the five valves that fit these tube sizes:

17.95
.......> .78
18.73
.......> .81
19.54
.......> .81
20.35
.......> .91
21.26

I think this could net me a nice F tuba valve section. This taper is pretty fast, though, so it might suck.

Along those lines: What are the five bores used on your Symphonie? Don't they increase by .5 mm each valve, or does each one increase in the bore by a full mm? (If it is 1 mm then the increases above would not be at all out of line. If it is by half-millimeter then maybe it would not be such a good idea.)

Anyway, it would be a fun project for me…

original B&S "Symphonie" F-tuba bore sizes:

17-18-19-20-21mm (telescoping, of course)

Most all of the "Perantucci" versions (which are now only designated by model numbers) are 19-19-19-20-21.

Some of those feature a bit larger bell throat (PT-15/16) - ie. the expansion from the bow connection to the bell throat is more aggressive - perhaps a 1/4" more, but the pancake still stops (as with the original-taper models) at 420mm.

All of the new (hydraulically-formed) ones are thicker and heavier. Even with six valves/circuits, this one doesn't exceed 8 kg.

The old model 180 (18mm straight bore) - you owned one
...I pulled one up out of kolij fesser studio coat, fairly recently, and tooted on it...' liked it)...
...I never had any beef with those, and "that low C"...pfft.
Again, people who try to play baritone horns as if they were E-flat tubas have just about as much success as
people who try to play F tubas as if they were (lap) sousaphones.

===========================================
184 B-flat:
When a tuba is 39 inches tall - and the bell is only 360mm in diameter, someone might as well set up bowling pins in a school band room during a first-come/first-served pizza party , thus: (after a half-century) a heavily-creased bell flare (and bottom bow, and..., and...,) is/are defined.

I prefer to repair bells as one of the last things I do, but - from experience - I know that instrument owners are more "relieved" to see that part repaired over any other - so (as instrument owners are all Pavlov's dogs) I often repair damaged bells towards the beginning. I don't completely pick over them (at first) but get them looking good enough so as digital 2-dimensional photography makes them look "nice"...so here's the bell flair. I guess - at this point - with all the valves workin' - it's technically (particularly, were it that it still belonged to a school system) "a tuba".

\

I have no interest in half-assing this job, but I am eager to get past it, and to get back to what I was doing.