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tobysima` wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:34 pm Just a couple questions regarding historical instruments that the internet seems to not have an answer for:
1) Are the Russian Bassoon and the Cimbasso (Not the movie soundtrack one) the same thing?
2) Are they tonally similar enough to a serpent to make it obsolete/unneeded?
3) Do the Russian Bassoon and the Serpent use the same mouthpiece?

Thanks in advance!

DonO. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:38 pm Before the development of what we think of as the modern cimbasso, the term was used in orchestral scores to designate a bass horn. The term is probably a contraction of the Italian term “corno in basso” (bass horn). The actual choice of instrument was left to the player, as there were several variations floating around. The serpent was pretty much obsolete by the beginning of the 1800’s, although they were still played. The so called “Russian bassoon” (which was neither Russian nor a bassoon) was actually a variation on the serpent, being made of wood and having finger holes. It was made into a different bassoon-like shape, had a brass or bronze bell added (often in the shape of a dragon’s head or similar), but otherwise much like a serpent. The ophicleide was considered a big improvement later in the century, being made of all metal and having keys rather than finger holes. Composers of the time, apparently still confused by the rapid development of bass instruments, still hung on to the use of “cimbasso” in their scores, while others specified “ophicleide”. The cimbasso we think of today did not come into being until much later in the century, in the 1880’s-1890’s. So before then the term “cimbasso” was more of a generic term for a family of instruments. Hope this helps.

bisontuba wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:34 pm

tobysima` wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:34 pm Just a couple questions regarding historical instruments that the internet seems to not have an answer for:
1) Are the Russian Bassoon and the Cimbasso (Not the movie soundtrack one) the same thing?
2) Are they tonally similar enough to a serpent to make it obsolete/unneeded?
3) Do the Russian Bassoon and the Serpent use the same mouthpiece?

Thanks in advance!

https://www.berliozhistoricalbrass.org/instruments.htm

Verdi was one of the composers who helped make the valved cimbasso relevant?

DonO. wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:38 pm Before the development of what we think of as the modern cimbasso, the term was used in orchestral scores to designate a bass horn. The term is probably a contraction of the Italian term “corno in basso” (bass horn). The actual choice of instrument was left to the player, as there were several variations floating around. The serpent was pretty much obsolete by the beginning of the 1800’s, although they were still played. The so called “Russian bassoon” (which was neither Russian nor a bassoon) was actually a variation on the serpent, being made of wood and having finger holes. It was made into a different bassoon-like shape, had a brass or bronze bell added (often in the shape of a dragon’s head or similar), but otherwise much like a serpent. The ophicleide was considered a big improvement later in the century, being made of all metal and having keys rather than finger holes. Composers of the time, apparently still confused by the rapid development of bass instruments, still hung on to the use of “cimbasso” in their scores, while others specified “ophicleide”. The cimbasso we think of today did not come into being until much later in the century, in the 1880’s-1890’s. So before then the term “cimbasso” was more of a generic term for a family of instruments. Hope this helps.