TubaForum.net

Hello,
I'm back again. Had an idea to make a list of all the tenor tuba parts in orchestral literature and what instrument the composer would have in mind for those (Wagner tubas not included).

I know for sure:
Holst's Planets - Euphonium
Ravel's Pictures at an Exhibition - French C Tuba (or Bb Bass Saxhorn? @Snake Charmer would know more about that than me)

Beyond that I do not know much.
Thanks,
Toby Simard

Richard Strauss:
Ein Heldenleben
Don Quixote

I probably am not thinking of something obvious, but there are several more, but those works are pretty obscure… In other words: don’t count on them being programmed, ever.

Ravel`s transscription of Mussorgski's "Pictures" uses just "Tuba". Given the time when this was done (1922) he would had most probably the french C tuba in mind. This was the orchestral standard instrument in France and the french-speaking part of Belgium between 1895 and 1975. You will not find this specified as tenor or bass tuba, just tuba. Together with the then and there common small-bore trombones and piston french horns it gave a consistent sound even when using the lower regions of the range (lowest possible note: AAA = 22.5 Hz!)
The Bb saxhorn was as far as I know only as a substitute for the Bb ophicleide in use, but in orchestral works the c ophicleide was more common so the logical successor was the little C tuba. Having ophicleides in work until ca 1900 the saxhorn did not make an orchestral career, it mostly stayed in military and wind band music, traditional Bb territory.
Strauss and Holst wrote their parts for "tenor tuba in Bb", so it seems good to use a Bb horn. Holst would have chosen a proper tenor tuba, not an euphonium. Euphoniums (like Eb and Bb compensator tubas) were "band instruments" back then, for orchestral work you needed an "proper orchestral instrument". John Fletcher had to break this rule in the 1970s...
Strauss has written his music for a typical tuba shaped rotary tenor tuba in german tradition, blending with the rest of the (traditional german) brass.

Holst wrote “The Planets“ roughly a couple of decades after Strauss wrote his pieces which included “tenor tuba“.
I wonder (??) if Holst used that same terminology simply to follow that which Strauss had used.
I don’t know much about what those instruments were commonly named/called in Germany and England a century or more ago, but I tend to suspect (??) that players of those piston/rotary instruments - in either country - rarely-if-ever referred to them as “tenor tubas”.
Again… I’m just suspecting, I’m not a scholar regarding this… and - designating known instruments as “tenor tubas“ - might sort of fall into the same sort of category as (earlier composers) designating unknown instruments as “cimbassos” (??)
————————
… and just as has been stated, the Ravel situation is different, as the instrument used in French orchestras - up until about 70 years ago - was a curious little all-in-one instrument loaded down with valves, and featuring a mouthpiece and bore size that many today might consider “out of proportion”.

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:30 am Ravel`s transscription of Mussorgski's "Pictures" uses just "Tuba". Given the time when this was done (1922) he would had most probably the french C tuba in mind. This was the orchestral standard instrument in France and the french-speaking part of Belgium between 1895 and 1975. You will not find this specified as tenor or bass tuba, just tuba. Together with the then and there common small-bore trombones and piston french horns it gave a consistent sound even when using the lower regions of the range (lowest possible note: AAA = 22.5 Hz!)
The Bb saxhorn was as far as I know only as a substitute for the Bb ophicleide in use, but in orchestral works the c ophicleide was more common so the logical successor was the little C tuba. Having ophicleides in work until ca 1900 the saxhorn did not make an orchestral career, it mostly stayed in military and wind band music, traditional Bb territory.
Strauss and Holst wrote their parts for "tenor tuba in Bb", so it seems good to use a Bb horn. Holst would have chosen a proper tenor tuba, not an euphonium. Euphoniums (like Eb and Bb compensator tubas) were "band instruments" back then, for orchestral work you needed an "proper orchestral instrument". John Fletcher had to break this rule in the 1970s...
Strauss has written his music for a typical tuba shaped rotary tenor tuba in german tradition, blending with the rest of the (traditional german) brass.

How come Holst didn't write it for euphonium? What did he have in mind if it wasn't the euphonium?

Mahler 7 - "Tenorhorn in B" - my guess would be he had the same instrument in mind as Strauss. I have no reason to think that other than they were contemporaries and their music tracks together in some ways. I've seen it done on a euphonium, a baritone, and oval euphoniums.

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:53 pm Mahler 7 - "Tenorhorn in B" - my guess would be he had the same instrument in mind as Strauss. I have no reason to think that other than they were contemporaries and their music tracks together in some ways. I've seen it done on a euphonium, a baritone, and oval euphoniums.

I've always preferred that on a baritone. Joe Alessi has gorgeous tone on the baritone, and I think it fits right. See the 2017 recording by the New York Philharmonic.

yeah...pro'lly something skinnier than a "euphonium"...but - as long as someone's there covering the part playing something...and playing it well...

Holst/euphonium...
...so (though I know that the word, "euphonium" was coined in Germany in the 1840's) were English extra-large valved/conical 9'-long-bugle tuba-things referred to as "euphoniums" around 1920?

tobysima` wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:42 pm

tubanh84 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:53 pm Mahler 7 - "Tenorhorn in B" - my guess would be he had the same instrument in mind as Strauss. I have no reason to think that other than they were contemporaries and their music tracks together in some ways. I've seen it done on a euphonium, a baritone, and oval euphoniums.

I've always preferred that on a baritone. Joe Alessi has gorgeous tone on the baritone, and I think it fits right. See the 2017 recording by the New York Philharmonic.

Bartok - Kossuth, Sz.21

This, from Hickey's may speed up the process:

"Various (Shifrin/Hanlon) Euphonium & Bass Trumpet Orchestral Excerpts" $44/95

This is taken from dwerden.com

Richard Strauss Don Quixote
Guntram
Ein Heldenleben
Bela Bartok Kossuth
Janacek Sinfonietta
Capriccio
Gustav Holst The Planets
Havergal Brian Symphony No. 8
Respighi Pini di Roma
Verdi Often used in stage bands
Meyerbeer Le Prophete

In his reference book Euphonium Music Guide,21 Denis Winter offers a list of orchestral pieces having parts that are often played on the euphonium (originally written for euphonium, tenor tuba, or Wagner tuba):

Barber Third Essay
Symphony No. 2, Op. 19
Bartok Kossuth
Miraculous Mandarin
Bax Overture to a Picaresque Comedie
Fourth Symphony
Berlioz Judges of the Secret Court
Symphony Fantasique
Bruckner Symphony No. 7
Symphony No. 8
Symphony No. 9
Ginastera Psalm 150, Op. 5
Grainger Early One Morning
Fall of the Stone
Father and Daughter
Irish Tune from County Derry
Mock Morris
Shallow Brown
We Have Fed Our Seas for a Thousand Years
Holst The Planets
Janacek Capriccio
Sinfonietta
Kay Stars and Stripes Suite
Western Symphony
Mahler Symphony No. 7
Moussorgsky/Ravel Pictures at an Exhibition
Respighi Pines of Rome
Schuman Credendum
Strauss, R.Alpine Symphony
Don Quixote
Ein Heldenleben
Elektra
Stravinsky Firebird
Rite of Spring
Petroushka
Wagner Das Rheingold
Die Walkure
Gotterdammerung
Siegfried
Webern Three Pieces
Yardumian Passacaglia, Recitative, and Fugue for Piano and Orchestra
Symphony No. 2

This is taken from dwerden.com

...

In his reference book Euphonium Music Guide,21 Denis Winter offers a list of orchestral pieces having parts that are often played on the euphonium (originally written for euphonium, tenor tuba, or Wagner tuba):

These listings are showing what is mostly played on euphonium, but NOT what was written for it or for tenor tuba, and even some composers (and editors!) marked the parts in different ways.

Examples:
- Meyerbeer asked for ophicleide.
- Symphony fantastique was originally scored for serpent and ophicleide, later revised for two ophicleides (C and Bb).
- In the Rite of Spring Stravinski wrote tuba bassa 1&2, even it was clear to be played on the french C (in 1913)...like the Bear solo and all his other pieces.
- Pini di Roma asks for tuba bassa...

How come Holst didn't write it for euphonium? What did he have in mind if it wasn't the euphonium?

The mandatory orchestral tuba in 1920s England was the Barlow F, a nice compact 3+2 piston F.
Besson was making some really good horns at this time, which are today named as baritone or euphonium but in the fact they are very near to the french saxhorn. The Class A Prototype series horns were made with 3, 4 or 5 valves (from 1895 to 1925), and I think this was the type of horn Holst had in mind, being just a smaller version of the Barlow F.
(Two of my students are really happy with their 1919 and 1923 4v Bessons !)

That eyebrow-raising/optimistic list of euphonium orchestra parts might be analogized to that
tuba part - that someone wrote for Dvorak “New World“ - whereby the over-interpretation is, “play everything“.

That having been said, I believe a more accurate performance (no: not “historical”, but “more accurate”) performance of Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique would be with two compensating euphoniums…
… yet so many orchestras play the last two movements too fast >>> and way too loud, so F tuba artillery seems to be required.

I believe a more accurate performance (no: not “historical”, but “more accurate”) performance of Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique would be with two compensating euphoniums…

This is absolutely right.

But ...playing the Dies Irae with velvety sounding, pitch-perfect gleaming brass? Sounds like subway/underground train platform. Take some ophicleides and you know this is about hell!

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:05 am

How come Holst didn't write it for euphonium? What did he have in mind if it wasn't the euphonium?

The mandatory orchestral tuba in 1920s England was the Barlow F, a nice compact 3+2 piston F.
Besson was making some really good horns at this time, which are today named as baritone or euphonium but in the fact they are very near to the french saxhorn. The Class A Prototype series horns were made with 3, 4 or 5 valves (from 1895 to 1925), and I think this was the type of horn Holst had in mind, being just a smaller version of the Barlow F.
(Two of my students are really happy with their 1919 and 1923 4v Bessons !)

So a Bb Saxhorn would be the appropriate instrument for Planets?

The Dies Irae in the ophicleides/tubas/whatever – in my view – is meant to be much more ominous than “Godzilla just about ready to bite you”… with the “Godzilla“ stuff being subsequent to the ophicleides. Those instruments weren’t all that loud…not even an orchestra is 200 years ago… but their sound was “distinctive“ and “ attention-getting“.

I’m not trying to impress anyone with my “amazing insights“, but this had to be shown TO me - and after my 60th birthday.

The euphonium sound is a bit smoother, but that range is not the prettiest-sounding range for the euphoniums, so I believe euphonium resonance - in that range - is “ominous“ enough to pull off the effect… the effect that I believe (via me being educated) was intended by Berlioz.

Snake Charmer wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:33 am

I believe a more accurate performance (no: not “historical”, but “more accurate”) performance of Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique would be with two compensating euphoniums…

This is absolutely right.

But ...playing the Dies Irae with velvety sounding, pitch-perfect gleaming brass? Sounds like subway/underground train platform. Take some ophicleides and you know this is about hell!

to the ophicleides. Those instruments weren’t all that loud…not even an orchestra is 200 years ago…

Playing them in anger helps cutting through an orchestra. If the rest is too loud, take more ophicleides!

So a Bb Saxhorn would be the appropriate instrument for Planets?

Absolutely!

Ophicleides aren’t all that much louder than bassoons - and those old French bassoons really offered a pointed sound.
There are four bassoons playing that “witchy” stuff (also: unison) in the movement to which we are referring.
Just as with the Dies Irae, the texture is transparent, and they are easily heard.
Later, the trombones, trumpets, and percussion bury the bassoons - as well as the ophicleides…and that’s OK.
===========
To your point, though, this movement is typically overplayed in modern orchestras, and – often - is used as an audition piece for Music Director hopefuls as a “shoe in” piece, as applause is always roaring and standing.

Ophicleides aren’t all that much louder than bassoons

..for this i got a second opinion:
My wife disagrees. After many days in home office she puts the ophicleide only very slightly behind the saxhorn, if I take the lightweight Couesnon. Same level as my Selmer small bore jazz trombone. The Courtois 166 Saxhorn and the French C (Courtois and Wessex) are louder. (but I must admit, I didn't try a bassoon yet!)