Holton 345 Redux

[the elephant]

Greetings! This old project is taking a massive step to the rear — again — because I am not happy with where I am.

What I *am* happy about is that I managed to get the bottom bow back into nice condition after the rotten luck I had (more than a year ago) that caused me to pack it in until I could practice with my Z60 Dent Machine for a while.

I got a lot of refresher training on my two Miraphone 186 project horns, so the long wait paid off for me in a decent looking (for a cut 345) bottom bow. It is still weird looking because these were not very accurately made or assembled parts in the first place, and Mr. Rusk made some oddly located cuts (at first analysis) leaving a VERY weirdly shaped bottom bow that fit the bell and top bow well but left an ugly set of angles.

The last time I got the valves on I was upset with several things, and (of course) I had diagnosed the issues incorrectly. I blamed the wrong thing and tore the horn back apart. In the process of doing this, I was forced to badly damage the bottom bow. (Don't even ask. It was unfortunate.)

After a great deal of thought (heh, over a year) I have identified the source of the problems and fixed them. However, I had to assemble the bugle again incorrectly to finalize my plan and decide to do it. I have been stressing over assembling it as it is or going back in to fix some things that really bug me (but that are purely aesthetic). A couple of your folks nailed me on this by telling me to take a step back and wait, then take it apart and fix it. I agree; these alignment issues will bug me every time I have that horn in front of me and have a tacet sheet. I tend to study my horns during these times, and I focus on all the stuff that "needs doing".

Today I am once again taking the 345's bugle apart. I have discovered with my two 186 tubas that when you disassemble a horn completely and lose all your alignment reference points the key to rebuilding it correctly is hidden in the order in which the parts are soldered together. For the two miraphone 186 tubas, this took me three tries before things fell into place. For the cut 345 (with all its inherent instability since the parts were never intended to fit this way) this is CRUCIAL, and it has taken me four tries.

Today will be the fifth and (hopefully) FINAL time. Whatever I end up with is what I assemble into my working horn. The good thing is I now have a series of photos of previous builds (some of which never made it online) where I can observe the final "lines" as well as things like ferrule alignment.

Today I will disassemble some things I did not want to have to do again as the weather is perfect and I have all day and into the evening in which to do this stuff. I am hoping to get it all done today. I will be happy if I get the bell and outer branches in the shape I need, and have the MTS assembled with the removable brace, and have cleaned up the fit of the joint between the 5th and 6th branches. This will allow a full assembly of the bugle and valves set where everything fits while not looking cattywampus.

The next step is to build the 3rd and 4th branches to the valves and assemble that to the top bow. I think that not only can I get this together if I do it in this order, but that I can reuse my old leadpipe.

I am of to tear the Holton back into a pile of parts. More later…

[Casca Grossa]

We need a "that's hot" emoji

[LeMark]

We need a "that's hot" emoji

how's that?

[prairieboy1]

Good for you! Keep posting and texting. This is the right thing to do with this project!

[the elephant]

Okay, so I now know why this is such a difficult tuba to line up.

Holton.

The problem is Holton.

From the factory, this set of parts (which plays very well) was bent up into slightly weird shapes. The outer branches have twists to them like on a Miraphone tuba, but these are not necessary on this bugle layout. The 345s I have examined did not seem to have these twists down the centerlines of any of the six branches. All were bent into "flat" U shapes.

Click for the overly-detailed blah-blah…

Spoiler

Miraphone (on the 18x series horns, at least) all have a slight skew in them to allow each branch to appear to be straight in line with the centerlines of the bell and everything else. The inside half of each top half U tilts to project it forwards from the bell a bit. The lower branches start with that angle and at the crook bend forward again so that the outer half projects straight up and down. Looking at a 186 from the valve side, the outer branches are vertical and are parallel with the bell. As the top bow passes the crook and is braced to the bell the branch then proceeds downwards, but it also bends forward a bit. The 3rd branch starts at that same angle and at the crook it twists again so that the outside half is once again parallel with the bell centerline (more or less, but not perfectly). It is very subtle but gives those horns their look. All rotary tuba branches have these twists in the branches.

My experience with BATs, however, is that the branches are all flat U shapes without twists along the centerline. At least this is true with most Holtons.

Most tubas have branches that fit closely together at all points, and they spiral out toward the audience, and the valves go on top of them. The Holtons all seem to maintain vertical centerlines and simply are clocked more forward so that the branches project out much farther. This is done by using U-shaped branches that are flat along the centerline. (Is this making any sense?) How they are stacked is with the lower two branches physically touching and a solder bead run where they make contact. (This is called a contact brace.) The bottoms of all branches are fatter, so the 3rd branch (the inner lower bow as MIraphone calls it) and the bottom bow (the 1st branch) both get smaller as they proceed upwards into the next branches, so where they meet with a contact brace is as close as they get. Proceed uphill a few inches and the inner top branch (4th branch) curves around toward the bell, and a brace nearly a half-inch long has to be used. In like 8 inches the two segments have gone from physically touching to being that far apart—because the centerline twist is missing or minimal. So the branches end up projecting forward quite a bit.

And my 345's bottom bow appears to have a centerline twist—in the wrong direction. It is not much, but this carelessness was making my job here quite difficult until I figured out this flaw existed and what it was doing, alignment-wise.

The manner in which Mr. Rusk chopped the ends of the bottom bow ensures that it will *never* reassemble into something that can look properly faired; it just won't. The part has been uglified and will not be corrected. On top of that, the guard plate is very crooked. It also cannot be repaired; a new part would have to be made, and that skillset is currently above my paygrade.

Knowing all this, I think I have the bell and outer branches reassembled as close to how it was when I bought the horn, without the visually disturbing top bow angle that made the horn look like it had to take a poop real bad.

The two ferrules can't ever be assembled where they are coplanar as the ends of the bottom bow will not allow for that. It cannot be done unless a new bow is scratch-built. (There is some merit in this idea, too, but it is beyond my financial means.)

I now have the bell ferrule on as straight as it can be fit. It still cants inwards a bit, but it is very close to being perpendicular with the bell, so it stays where it is.

The top bow is bent slightly in toward the bell and rotated behind it a little, as it was when I got the horn, but not quite so much, Also, that ferrule was crooked when I got the horn. It was hidden from view by slides, so I never noted it. It is crooked, but it is not terrible, and the top bow works now. I think it also will stay as it is.

I have my "study" photos to check alignment. I discovered that the height of the camera in relation to the ferrules severely affects the appearance of the angles, so I need to shoot that one again. The centerline of the top bow against the bell was also taken from a bad angle but still looks pretty straight, despite the weird twist in the bottom bow.

I am done with my late lunch and headed back out to properly fill both joints to both large ferrules and clean up everything. Here are some dirty, unsealed photos to show how things look as of now.

I want the bell's centerline (yellow) to be the reference for everything. The top bow centerline (also yellow) is canted inwards a bit. Earlier it canted outwards and looked laughable to me. The green line in the large ferrule is almost perpendicular and good enough. The red line is off, but when the lower 4th slide is in place you will hardly notice it. I will post the after pics this evening. I am happy that I listened to some of you, as this set of errors is acceptable to me. What I had for the last two weeks was pissing me off because I could do better. This set of current errors is not due to me but to limitations in the chopped up parts. I can accept that.

[prairieboy1]

Your thorough investigation of the Holton has paid off. The errors that were made in the construction of the horn had absolutely nothing to do with anything you did or did not do. Now that you know this, time to put that horn back together and make some music! Your attention to detail is amazing!

[tubazach07]

Great job! I am looking forward to seeing the final product!

[the elephant]

Your thorough investigation of the Holton has paid off. The errors that were made in the construction of the horn had absolutely nothing to do with anything you did or did not do. Now that you know this, time to put that horn back together and make some music! Your attention to detail is amazing!

Oooooh, no, no, no… I screwed up.

But the reason I could not diagnose it was that I was starting from a different place than I thought. Once I had identified the underlying problem it was much easier to fix my mistakes.

I need to take the blame for my screwups. Otherwise, I cannot crow when I fix them.

And today was NOT a "fix them" sort of day, unfortunately. However, I got very close and I am keeping this bell/outer branch assembly.

For good.

Here are some pics. The first one shows the new alignment. It is as close as the parts will allow. There are two small errors that are mine, but it took me seven tries to get the top bow aligned like that. It took four to get the bottom bow/bell/ferrule straight. The smaller ferrule will never fit correctly.

Thanks Bob.

In this photo, all four lines are parallel or perpendicular with the bell's centerline. As I said, the horn looks better when the top bow tips in toward the bell a little bit. To do this is must rotate behind the bell, about two inches to the rear at the bell brace.

[The Big Ben]

I agree. You have probably done as best as could be done with the condition of the parts when you began. Only a new bottom bow could make this better. Considering Holton is fresh out of 345 bottom bows and ferrules- in BBb OR CC- that probably isn't going to happen.

[Yorkboy]

All the Holton 6/4 tubas I've seen feature the top bow sitting behind the bell at least an inch. I think what you've done is correct for the model - it looks great!

[prairieboy1]

Thanks so much for the pictures! They really help me understand the processes that you are going through to complete the horn the way you want it to be. I appreciated the fact that you corrected me in acknowledging that you had made a mistake in the way you went about things previously. Your honesty is laudable. Keep posting and texting as you continue your journey with this wonderful tuba.

[the elephant]

I think I am going to use this new Spoiler tag to hide my always-too-long text. It will clean up these project threads. All you will see are the photos, but if you want to read the text you can open it up. I hope this will be much cleaner looking.
— KWR

Spoiler

My goals for today were, first, to locate (and possibly repair) my cheap HF borescope. That took more time than I had hoped, and yeah, I had to do some work to it, too. Once that was done I sat on the shop floor with the Holton bell/outer branch assembly and went "tuba spelunking" to put eyes on the interior of the top/bottom bow joint.

It passed muster with me and I was overjoyed at the idea of NOT having to take all that stuff (including the guards) apart to refit that joint and level that ferrule (that cannot be leveled unless I do major surgery to the bottom bow).



Knowing this, I did the "smilie7 dance" as illustrated above.

I spent some time looking through all my detachable braces from Instrument Innovations as they will be the 4-6 massive braces used to hold the valves to the body and the one or two smaller ones to be used in the MTS/5th valve area. I decided finally on what would be used, found out what I lacked, and ordered some additional parts from the I.I. crew.

Then I headed out back and used my one small brace kit to build my MTS brace.

This took forever.

The brace socket has no foot, so I "decapitated" one of the King diamond-footed brace sockets I have been using on this horn, leaving me with just the diamond-shaped plate. I ground, filed, and sanded that down smooth and then silver soldered the new threaded brace socket to the plate.

Once this had been done I measured and cut the post and assembled the rest of the brace. I had to cut a new outer slide tube for the small side first, but the end result is a very well aligned MTS with a nice pull, and an adjustable brace that fits properly and that doesn't bind the slide up like a lot of Edwards/Getzen trombone braces do (because they were poorly fitted at the factory. (Just sayin'…)

Here are some pics…

[Tubajug]

Looking good! That's exactly where I used the small I.I. detachable brace too. It works very well there. I'm glad to see this moving along!

[the elephant]

Thanks, Jordan! I was not happy with the round brace feet of the Edwards kit I bought, so I did some poking around and found that my King braces use the same 4.75mm rod as the small Instrument Innovations kit. (The kit they make for Edwards/Getzen uses the same parts but with a 5.5mm rod, so the holes that accept the rod don't match.) I am glad I did the minor surgery to get the diamond foot on the I.I. part. I was happy with this and figured that you might comment since your MTS brace came out so well. These are some handy parts to have sitting around in the brace bins.

I think it was Dan Myer who turned me on to the I.I. guys and I am glad he did.

How is your homebrew Eb doing? It looks like a fun horn to play. I hope you are happy with it. You certainly did a fine job teaching yourself to do the work as you went. I am still impressed by your drive to make it happen *and* to do so more or less on your own. Congratulations, man!

[tubazach07]

Reading your Holton project posts brightens my day! No joke, for the last year I would think “How is the Holton project coming along?” Glad to see you are making progress!

[the elephant]

Thanks, Zach!

When you get your gig bag situation sorted please post some photos either here or on FB. I am excited to see another leather gig bag on the market that can be had in the side-loader layout. Even better, our man green bean is employing GC's old cutters and sewer, which I think is great since he worked for Cronkhite for so long and then had to be dismissed when the company moved. I always felt bad for GC's workers and am happy this guy is working again to make such nice bags for tuba players.

[the elephant]

Today, I …

Spoiler

… decided to get my act together and make my large detachable braces so I can slap this puppy together. It did not go perfectly, but all the tedious, time-consuming stuff is done. I made five, and three of them have small gaps in the silver solder due to the radius cut in by the maker for a skinny trombone-sized tube. I ground them down but could never get a perfect fit, and the paste flux hid the gaps from me even after having been through the pickle solution. I did not see them until I was buffing off the mess. They will be very easy to fix, so I'm not sweating it; I will fix them sometime soon.

I used five of the Large Detachable Brace Socket kits from Instrument Innovations up in Elkhorn, and I used some scrap nickel silver from the new Miraphone bow guards on my CC 186. You cut them to fit, the BBb horn is longer and they only sell one size, so my shorter CC left me with a lot of very nice nickel silver cutoffs. I made a template and scored lines into the curved nickel silver, marking the center point, and popping up a dimple from the backside to help me keep the socket centered on the plate.

They came out great, but I *do* have to touch up the tiny silver solder gaps on three of them. I am sure they are fine as they are, but this is such a heavy tuba, and detachable braces are inherently weaker than solid ones, so I don't want to take a chance.

Here are some pics…

I like this spoiler thing, heh, heh, heh…

These are Miraphone bottom and top bow guard cut-offs. I save everything, and this is why.


I initially cut four but realized that I had an extra socket, so I cut a 5th flange.


These came out nicely because the Miraphone stuff was already curved to fit large tubes.


Fresh out of the pickle, and ready to be buffed.


Post buffing — I only did what was needed to remove the heat marks. I think they came out very nicely, and will be happy to have them on my horn.


Here are all the parts. The brass plug solders onto the rod. The barrel is captured to the rod. The rod stays on the valve section. My new, threaded foot stays on the bugle.


This rod is some of my quarter-inch stuff; it is very stout.


This is the King brace that will hold the rod, end plug and captured barrel to the valve section.


The silver soldering on two of these came out perfectly…


… but on three we have small gaps, this one being the largest. It will be pretty easy to fix that, but not tonight. It's Saturday night and is now time for pizza and a cold beverage.

[LeMark]

those are flipping amazing Wade. I bet you could make a nice little sideline business selling them

[the elephant]

Thanks, but no bueno on the profit margin. The kits cost $17 and I would have to purchase some nickel silver feet and a roller… and a lot of Dremel heads. Nickel silver destroys even the fiberglass cutting wheels. The retail price would be stupid high. I would recommend having I.I. do this for you. They will, but I wanted to do it myself using stuff I had lying around.

I would have to charge a lot as these took some time to make. However, if someone provided me with the proper amount of sheet stock and the kit I could put them together like this. It is not difficult. Like painting, it is all in the prep work. The soldering itself took like 2 minutes per brace foot.

And then I ended up with GAPS after all that!

[LeMark]

I love instrument innovations. I may have to invite them to join us as "retail partner"