basstrombasso

[bloke]

- I'm not showing up for any more gigs with a slide bass trombone.
- I tried doubling - two or three times during my life.
- I spend MOST of my time practicing trombone slide technique (with my tubas collecting dust).
- I'm VERY VERY happy with the F cimbasso that I built, and would NOT trade it for any other (including the huge-bucks/bragged-about-by-others made-in-boutique-shops ones that I've tried).

...so I'm going to give "building a 9-foot-bugle/shaped-like-a-little-cimbasso/5-valve bass trombone" a shot

Here are pictures of a 1960's tuning-in-the-slide F. E. Olds bass trombone (that I picked up MANY years ago) for $1XX,

as well a a picture of a King 4-valve super-beater baritone (.562" bore) valveset - with BEAUTIFUL pistons, and WONDERFUL casings, and COMPLETELY REPAIRABLE valveset tubing/crooks/bows - that I (just recently) bought on the-bay for $1XX.

The 5th valve (probably...??) will be the rotor in the bell section, but with the circuit SHORTENED to a "long whole step") length.

Compared to past projects, this project will likely prove itself to be less involved.

If possible (??), I plan to try to have it (adjustably) rest on the chair seat.

I could blather on, but - since this project will NOT be engaged in any time soon - I've typed enough crap, here.

[the elephant]

RATS!

You beat me to it!

I have been sitting on an old Bach 50B dependent horn bell section with missing rotors and slides AND the same model of King baritone horn (but silver). I have been waiting for a chance to try and make a cimbasso-layout Bb "five valved bass trombone" for myself.

Perhaps one day we could play some duets on our two minibassi?

[bloke]

I would like a better bell section (like yours),but this smaller one might (??) be easier for me (just like the Yamaha euphonium on “Mars”) to play higher (ex. 2nd) parts. (??)

[bloke]

Why not get a valve section that’s double independent and cut those down to the flat whole step and flat half step and rig them up for left hand activation? Kinda like an F.

Seems like that would be really useful for playing bass trombone parts where you’re below the staff most of the time.

[bloke]

Why not get a valve section that’s double independent and cut those down to the flat whole step and flat half step and rig them up for left hand activation?

‘cause I ain’t.

(I’ll let you do that with yours.)

[bloke]

An Oldsophile reminded me that the bore size of these bass trombones is also sort of between large tenor and bass.
If the theory that “blowing through valves causes additional resistance” is correct, then maybe this .562” inch bore will feel about like the .554” bore playing slide…Who knows…??

[Yorkboy]

I’ll be watching your progress with interest.

I had a similar thought last summer on another forum, and at that time it seemed that the general consensus was that it was a bad idea, or at least a pointless one.

I’ve also got a 4 valve King set, but I’m still searching for a suitable bell joint, maybe a Bach single-rotor, as elephant has mentioned.

Either that, or a Yamaha 3 valve upright set I’ve got, with a double-rotor bass trombone - with the valves oriented like a traditional valve trombone.

[bloke]

The appeal with this bass trombone (to me) is
- I already have it.
- It was stupid cheap.
- With a duo bore (.554" - .565"...I think...??) and a 9" bell, might (??) end up being a good "second" OR "bass" trombone-ish instrument.

bloke "I don't like BOTH spending a bunch of dough AND having to friggin' make something, to boot."

I’ll be watching your progress with interest.

I had a similar thought last summer on another forum, and at that time it seemed that the general consensus was that it was a bad idea.

I’ve also got a 4 valve King set, but I’m still searching for a suitable bell joint, maybe a Bach single-rotor, as elephant has mentioned.

Either that, or a Yamaha 3 valve upright set I’ve got, with a double-rotor bass trombone - with the valves oriented like a traditional valve trombone.

[Yorkboy]

One of the things that has held me back (other than not having a bell section to work with) is the prospect of it not being “accepted” by those who are used to playing next to a traditional slide-bass trombone.

I’ll be taking my newly-constructed E flat cimbasso to some quintet rehearsals (and maybe their corresponding gigs) next month…..I’m thinking that might be a good place to start (although I have no idea how I’ll transport it without a case )

[bloke]

transport it without a case

Assuming you'll be using your own transportation, roll up the pieces in old quilts.

If you build a hard case (knowing how you think), I would encourage you to think otherwise, and don't overbuild.
It's going to be a LARGE box, so consider building it out of lauan (THIN - 1/8") plywood, and reinforcing it here-and-there (just as guitar bodies are reinforced - thin, yet strong, as well as underneath high-stress handles/hinges)...and think more in terms of "Titebond II" than "big-ass-screws".
To overlap the top half over the bottom half, consider 3/4" x 1/4" wooden-screen-door trim material.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woodgrain-M ... /206000895

...and you might consider running this around the outside edges...
https://wallguard.com/corner-guards/alu ... d.com.html

[bloke]

Though I am sort of jazzed about doing a really nice precision restoration and repair on the California Olds tuning-in-slide playing slide - and (as an occasional alternative) using it with this instrument, I’m not particularly excited about the 1950s 9 inch bell Olds bass trombone bell section as part of this project…

I reached out, and found someone with a nice early Yamaha COPY of a Conn 72H bass trombone section, who is interested in some parts that I have laying around here (in which I was not interested), and thus we were able to trade.
The Yamaha bell section is from a model YSL-322.
I have played and repaired these instruments before, am familiar with them, and I’m eager to use this component with this project.

Don’t allow me to mislead anyone that I’m getting right on to this project, but it’s nice to have all of the parts – and desirable ones at that - all in the same box, and waiting for me to have time to do this.

I really enjoyed performing the trombone III part of Schubert X with my F cimbasso, but would enjoy playing Beethoven/Schubert/Mendelssohn similar parts (on no-tuba concerts) on a B-flat instrument - as has been described in this thread, as long as it doesn’t turn out to be a piece of crap. in one particular per-service orchestra, the third trombonist and I are very good friends and they would be delighted to move up to 2nd (simply for a change) – a seat which, oddly, does not have a permanent person in it – on such concerts.
I suspect that one of the most challenging things is going to be designing a hard case for it, but I’m not going to trick myself into carrying around some shoulder-stretching trunk; i’m going to build its frame out of 1/8 inch thick Lauan.
… so here’s a pretty good picture of the same (Yamaha) model of bass trombone that I just found on the Internet:



Hey… It just occurred to me that I could use this thing to cover a lot of the American Brass Quintet (Rojak) type of literature as well, instead of using my euphonium.

[bloke]

My first bass trombone was a YBL-321. Solid copy of the 72H with similar playing characteristics.

Good horns. No idea why Yamaha changed the wrap design to a far less useful one (no ability to pull to low E).

[bloke]

yeah...I'm not sure the difference between 321 and 322...or is the F slide shorter on the 322 (even though the wrap is the same)...??
(Online YSL-321/322 schematics are long-deleted.)

I'm hoping for the "red paint" logo, so I can get rid of the logo without buffing away metal.

I probably will NOT - ultimately - have any valves in the bell section, but go ahead and set this thing up like a 4+1 tuba...or possibly 4+2.

If I can manage to put TWO rotors on left hand digits, I'll still have a right hand thumb to operate a #1 trigger, a main-slide trigger or (if really lucky) "no trigger needed".

bloke "but soberly/seriously, intonation CANNOT be fudged, in an an orchestra trombone section. Mendelssohn and Karl King just ain't the same thing."

[matt g]

An interesting consideration with that long pull slide would be to get the slides aligned and smooth, and throw a kicker on it.

I’m pretty sure one of the older big name bass trombone guys had a similar setup on a 72H. Maybe George Roberts had this?

[bloke]

Your post - here - just reminded me that I’m also going to have a playing slide to go with the bell section, so I guess I’ll leave the F-attachment in place as it is…
… and - hopefully - what appears to be a B-pull-length F slide actually is, and - if it is - of course I will precision-align it for a quick/easy pull/push… and maybe (??) even with a lever for that tuning slide.
The valve section will likely still be a 4+1 or 4+2 configuration, even though the bell section F-attachment will likely just sit quietly - when the valve section is in place.

An interesting consideration with that long pull slide would be to get the slides aligned and smooth, and throw a kicker on it.

I’m pretty sure one of the older big name bass trombone guys had a similar setup on a 72H. Maybe George Roberts had this?

[Crymzon1980]

One of the things that has held me back (other than not having a bell section to work with) is the prospect of it not being “accepted” by those who are used to playing next to a traditional slide-bass trombone.

I’ll be taking my newly-constructed E flat cimbasso to some quintet rehearsals (and maybe their corresponding gigs) next month…..I’m thinking that might be a good place to start (although I have no idea how I’ll transport it without a case )

That Cimbasso Looks great though :D

[Yorkboy]

One of the things that has held me back (other than not having a bell section to work with) is the prospect of it not being “accepted” by those who are used to playing next to a traditional slide-bass trombone.

I’ll be taking my newly-constructed E flat cimbasso to some quintet rehearsals (and maybe their corresponding gigs) next month…..I’m thinking that might be a good place to start (although I have no idea how I’ll transport it without a case )

That Cimbasso Looks great though :D

Thanks! It plays really well too; still trying to dial in the right mouthpiece for it. Getting folks to agree to give it a chance is a different story however

FWIW, I’m still searching for a nice affordable Bach 50 single valve bass trombone bell joint - I feel a valve bass trombone percolating in the back of my mind

[bloke]

Does that marching baritone bell section offer you enough trombone-like “zing” resonance, including when you are not pushing it, volume wise?

Of course, this is only of tertiary importance, with intonation and response far outweighing any subtle “type of resonance“ issues.

I’ve always wondered if a Conn 16E mellophonium bell might work out really well for - specifically - an E-flat cimbasso… but something past the straight part might (??) need to be located that tapers down more slowly than does the Conn instrument… possibly tying it into the body-bugle of a Flugabone…(??)
(…and take this set of suppositions with a grain of salt)

[bloke]

OK...

I'm NOW in possession of a long-discontinued single-rotor bass trombone BELL SECTION from a Yamaha YBL-322, which is a knockoff of the venerable Elkhart-vintage (gorgeous-sounding - ie. thankfully NOT Bach/Edwards/Shires-sounding-ish) Conn 72H.

The rotor works OK, but (probably dragged around foobaw field) one of the rotor knuckles is coated with gooey solder, so I may (eschewing even well-done patches) just consider purchasing a new rotor assembly from Yamaha.

As the model (and parts/support) ceases to exist, I believe that I've determined that the primary (F) rotor assembly used on the currently-made model YBL-830 features the same geometry/porting, and may (defacto) be exactly the same rotor as the old YBL-322 rotor.

I've sent in a parts list to Balinda at Yamaha, asking for comments regarding parts pricing and any back-order situation.

Though I may ONLY use this rotor when playing this with a regular playing slide, I don't want "something that I put together" to be crappy, so...

OH YEAH:
This Yamaha bell section (though different slide lock ring threads bolts up smoothly (same insertion taper, an appropriate insertion depth to engage a slide lock ring - and without bottoming out) to my 1950's F.E. Olds tuning-in-the-slide duo-bore bass trombone playing slide, so that's really cool. Also, a play-test reports to me that (compared to the 1950's F.E. Olds bass trombone's bell section) this Yamaha (Conn 72H knockoff) bell section sounds approximately 327.476 % BETTER, so that's particularly encouraging (having gone to the trouble to acquire this Yamaha bass trombone bell section).

[bloke]

I absolutely do NOT have time to screw with this project, right now.

I have a tremendous amount of catching up to do - though I am making slow progress, in that regard.

That having been said, I found that - with the Holton project - if I did a little bit today, a little bit two days from now, a little bit next week - etc., that (if not completely to the blingy finish line) I would end up with - well... - an instrument...

...so I'm employing the same strategy, here.

What I SHOULD have been doing - before lunch - was buffing, cleaning, lacquering, and boxing-up, but - instead - I de-Kingified these top caps.

I HAD hoped - just as with the tubas - that the top caps on the King front-action baritones are the same as the defunct Olds/Reynolds/Bach front-action baritone top caps - thread-wise, but - alas - they are NOT...so I was forced - per my preference, here, to MANUALLY DE-felt-donut these King baritone top caps.

Here's something that might not occur to to many people:

Once/if the center risers on top caps are exposed (ie. quite a bit easier for a lathe's bit to access - as they are here, rather than having to resort to a boring bar), the risers (IF desired...??) can be lowered - as long as the stems are shortened by the same amount. I have NO IDEA whether I might want to subtly lower the hand position on this instrument, because (WELP... ) It ain't yet built.

bloke "having just created as tremendous an amount of out-of-proportion-to-this-operation rhetoric as I could conjure...actually not, but (again) the cuckoo clock insists that it's lunchtime, so..."

bass trombasso caps.JPG (42.87 KiB) Viewed 1706 times

I ain't braggin', but some WILL notice the "witness marks" (smooth transitions to the original felt donut bottom surfaces - notice: tarnish).