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Short treatise on wind management when playing the tuba:

There are 3 kinds of breaths you take when playing the tuba.

1) The full breath before the entrance or after a rest. (should be very relaxed even if coming in a max volume)

2) The sniff (if you do it through the nose) or the short (if you do it through the mouth) breath, which will not be full but should also be relaxed and may need some musical accommodation in terms of timing with the musical context to achieve. It will at most be a third to a half a breathe if made in the middle of a phrase.

3) Circular breathing which is mostly a stopgap, to keep you from going below a certain reserve volume of air in a phrase which should not disrupt the musical phrase.

So to the subject: Circular Breathing.

The use of breath or (wind) as we now call it is challenged in the younger player, who is usually without more advanced instruction bound to overblow the tuba in a way that he or she will always feel "out of breath", at the worst possible times, if not all the time.

Once younger tubists advance to understand that the speed of the air (in some correlation to volume) as it relates to the tuba, is quite slow, they do learn to relax a bit and blow the horn in a way that doesn't exhaust themselves, becomes comfortable and the smaller phrased based "sniff" breaths become not a problem.

But composers really didn't care about this, and learning to circular breathe is a valuable skill for a tubist. And its even more valuable to the tubist due to long held notes and the slow moving air requirement of the instrument. If you have to hold a note for 30 bars in an orchestral piece, you will want to learn how to circular breathe.

It's (once you get the hang of it) actually quite easy.

This technique to get you started was related to me by Sam Pilafian, Im sure there are other sources of information that may differ.

1) Fill up a glass of water
2) Get a drinking straw and put it in the glass of water
3) Blow into the straw and make bubbles in the glass of water with your air stream

Now for the fun part.

4) Try blowing into the straw and making bubbles in the water and while doing that let some air into your cheeks. So your blowing air from your cheeks into the straw not directly from your lungs.

5) Since you can now blow air from your cheeks into the straw (while still holding air in your lungs) you can inhale through your nose and bring more air into your lungs.

6) Now that you have topped up your lungs you can return to blowing through the straw from there from your lungs.

Until you can do this with a glass of water and a straw, don't try it necessarily on the tuba. It may be frustrating.

When you practice the sequence, you want to transition from inhaling, blowing from your lungs, letting your cheeks fill up (not alot just enough to keep
the air going while you sniff the next bit into your lungs)

Eventually, you will get faster and the process will become seamless. This can be a great technique for quintet or full orchestra.
Its not necessarily for junior players who may be blowing a bit too hard into the instrument.
But as a pro I found it invaluable.

Perfect combination of lazy and efficient. Also, people you play with may hate you for it ;)

Borrowing a cheap oboe (that plays at least one or two pitches) and a functional reed (not "artiste" quality, necessarily) might be better than straw/water (for the beginning-to-learn-how stage), because there's actually tonal feedback that responds to steadiness of the release of the saved-up air.

I was taught how to do it by a saxophone player when I was a teenager. I'm not great at it, I have a hard time maintaining pitch when the difference in air support changes

Toby Hanks used to tell me (and I agree) that most folks' sinuses and nasal passages don't really allow for a free inhalation. A quick breath through the nose often makes a lot of unpleasant, 'snotty' noise, and will serve as more of a distraction than just finding a musical place to breathe.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:20 am Toby Hanks used to tell me (and I agree) that most folks' sinuses and nasal passages don't really allow for a free inhalation. A quick breath through the nose often makes a lot of unpleasant, 'snotty' noise, and will serve as more of a distraction than just finding a musical place to breathe.

Yes.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:20 am Toby Hanks used to tell me (and I agree) that most folks' sinuses and nasal passages don't really allow for a free inhalation. A quick breath through the nose often makes a lot of unpleasant, 'snotty' noise, and will serve as more of a distraction than just finding a musical place to breathe.

I suffer from pretty much constant allergy related congestion and post nasal drip, so even doing things like the Arnold Jacobs exercises can be less than pleasant. I may even get surgery to enlarge my nasal passages, as they have "overgrown".

I remember past discussions, and circular breathing seems to work best with woodwinds, partly due to how their embouchure is formed. Their lips aren't doing the vibrating, so it presents less issues. Also they use less air than brass instruments. I know some trombone players who can do it, but not any bass trombone or tuba players that have been able to utilize it effectively, except at low volumes.

Also, Oboe was mentioned, but honestly they use so little air it doesn't make sense. In many cases they have the opposite problem than most: they still have air left in their lungs, but are low on oxygen so they need to breathe.

UncleBeer wrote:Toby Hanks used to tell me (and I agree) that most folks' sinuses and nasal passages don't really allow for a free inhalation. A quick breath through the nose often makes a lot of unpleasant, 'snotty' noise, and will serve as more of a distraction than just finding a musical place to breathe.

Rick “like” Denney

This is something I learned - imperfectly - as a senior in HS. My band director, a trumpet player, explained it to me, had me practice almost the same as explained above, except blowing onto a coffee cup and watching the continuous ripples. It's not a commonly used technique for me, and I can't do it on changing pitches, just on longly held notes, and unless I'm extremely focused, there's almost always a little 'bump' when going from cheek air to lung air. I mainly do it to impress the trumpet players who sit right next to me. I do admire those who use it well, and I chuckle at the theatrics of Maynard Ferguson (tho' I love a lot of his music) when he would CB on stage; then again, it was all a part of his showmanship.
And, yes, I invented the word 'longly'.
Tim

Cool parlor trick, but not nothing I care to take the time to learn at my age. My shelf life is limited!

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:20 am Toby Hanks used to tell me (and I agree) that most folks' sinuses and nasal passages don't really allow for a free inhalation. A quick breath through the nose often makes a lot of unpleasant, 'snotty' noise, and will serve as more of a distraction than just finding a musical place to breathe.

It can be a little distracting (which is why I said your peers may hate you for it). But I have to disagree with him on this occasion, I have no problem getting air in quickly through my nose. Its just a sniff, its not a blow!

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:04 am Borrowing a cheap oboe (that plays at least one or two pitches) and a functional reed (not "artiste" quality, necessarily) might be better than straw/water (for the beginning-to-learn-how stage), because there's actually tonal feedback that responds to steadiness of the release of the saved-up air.

I hadnt heard of this one.

I had zero luck learning circular breathing, but years ago I heard (if I remember right) Wes Jacobs talk about breathing in through the mouth and nose at the same time. It's harder to learn than you think, not natural, but it did help me with that little bit of extra air to carry a phrase. But I had clear sinuses when I was young...

I could do a little bit of that in college, about the way you described... Upper middle register and above.... Not low notes. Is that possible?

It is interesting that so many agree with me in my previously unexpressed opinion that circular breathing is not too useful with low brass.
A former teacher of renown encouraged me to use it to impress audition committees…and that person has been very successful at doing that…but it just occurred to me that it’s noisy, and it’s little more than (again: with low brass) a parlor trick, and isn’t very musical.
...so we disagree on that point… Big deal.

... I also witnessed the Empire Brass - in an opening number in one of the recitals - doing it incessantly. It was noisy and distracting, and obviously put there to impress the brass players in the audience, but probably puzzled the other patrons.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:22 pm ... I also witnessed the Empire Brass - in an opening number in one of the recitals - doing it incessantly. It was noisy and distracting, and obviously put there to impress the brass players in the audience, but probably puzzled the other patrons.

lol I agree they were pretty big into that. I will say its not a high priority skill. But it does have its uses where the continuation of the sound is more important than a sniff (because it wont be heard anyway) usually in a large hall or in an orchestra pit.

Stopping the note can be more disruptive to the music unless you and your section mates plan very carefully, to stagger (or synchronize) your breathing, in supporting the bottom of a D minor chord that goes for 30 bars.

But yes I agree that since we ask the audience not to crinkle candy wrappers and to silence their cellphones in avery fisher hall during the concert that we shouldnt be making noises that would be distracting for the audience.

I admit to sometimes using it just to be lazy and not bother with a mouth breathe and keep the note going. But Im not anybody important enough to complain about.

I wasnt making the case that tuba players should circular breathe. Only on a way to learn how if you want to.

Nworbekim wrote: ↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:34 pm I could do a little bit of that in college, about the way you described... Upper middle register and above.... Not low notes. Is that possible?

It depends on your particular playing approach, but for me since I use a slow air approach I can generally do it down to about blfat below the staff without a problem. Thats pushing it a little. I would not use it too much in upper registers because the higher frequency of the note would be more sensitive to pitch changes and you are using less volume of air anyway.