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TL;DR: Working on a mammoth CC project and open to suggestions on bell, valve set, and cutting choices

long read if you want context:
I've been slowly gathering parts and tools over the past year or so in hopes of making a 6/4 CC that resembles a Marin Mammoth a closely as possible in terms of playing characteristics and tone. In addition to a series of mammoth bows, I also was fortunate enough to acquire a rare Martin mammoth CC, which I plan to use as a reference in assembling this new horn. Also as a reference, I've been studying all the past cut attempts that I'm aware of and see what I can learn from them. Here's what I've found so far:

Gnagey-cut "Big Bob's" CC: King valve section, short bell
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65229

Gnagey-cut CC: King valves, Cerveny bell
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=86742

Gnagey-cut CC: King valves, original tall Martin bell
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=83827

Epely-cut "piggy" CC: Miraphone 1290 valves, PT6P bell
https://reverb.com/item/25997351-6-4-piggy-cc-tuba

Stofer-cut CC: Kanstul valves, tall Kanstul bell
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=50204

Agnew/Martin rotary CC: MW Bill Bell valves, short bell


Martin "Jay McAllister" rotary CC: Cerveny(?) valves, short Martin bell
viewtopic.php?t=2857

For my attempt, I want to get as much length out of the bugle as possible with a shorter bell stack in order to minimize cuts to the bows as much as possible, resulting in a short, fat "piggly-like" build of a few of the above examples. That coupled with the exclusion of bits and a cut to the main slide get a couple inches closer, but some bow cuts will still be needed. I'm thinking a concept similar to the 4/4 Gnagey method of putting a short monster Eb (or new-style King) bell on the old-style King bugles, only in this case, putting something similar to the old-style Martin bells on the newer style recording bell bugle.

One big difference then the above projects that I want to make is that I want to get as close as possible tot he original Martin bore size (in the .710"-.720" range. All of the above here (with the exception of Jay's old horn) either err on the small side using .687"-.689" bore sets or err on the larger side with .734"-.750" bore sets. I realize of course that is because King and York style sets are much more plentiful and that virtually no one else made valve sets of that size, but if there are any that are close that anyone is aware of, I'm all ears.

Any other suggestions the masses may have in terms of parts choices, cutting methodologies, etc. are gladly welcome. I'm still very green to the franken-ing game so I'm eager to hear and learn from the more experienced among us.

Cheers, and a happy holiday season to y'all!

On the other site I recall Paul Scott saying Martin Wilk put a Fafner bell (I think) on one of Paul’s horns. That might be an option. I can try to dig up the thread if you’re curious.

Edit: found it here —http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php ... 98#p636798

Buescher (sorry, I can’t think how to spell that) valve sets are .720” and could be found in front action. They are, of course, very uncommon today.

If you can contact Willson, they make a 4 valve set in .708 bore (for their E flat and F bass tubas).

IIRC, Martin factory bore was @ .718, a difference of .010 (one one-hundredth of an inch).

Those Dynasty (Weril) four-valve sousaphones are/were .728" bore.
The combinations of a slanted valveset + everything being brass would support an American appearance.
...and (well...) Weril instruments were (are?) made in (an) America...

hrender wrote: ↑Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:01 pm On the other site I recall Paul Scott saying Martin Wilk put a Fafner bell (I think) on one of Paul’s horns. That might be an option. I can try to dig up the thread if you’re curious.

Edit: found it here —http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php ... 98#p636798

I've really enjoyed seeing all the options for solutions regarding removable upright bells like this one, but I'm looking for a single-piece upright bell with similar proportions to the early pre-20s Martins. I should've been more clear in my original post.

York-aholic wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:00 am Buescher (sorry, I can’t think how to spell that) valve sets are .720” and could be found in front action. They are, of course, very uncommon today.

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:25 am If you can contact Willson, they make a 4 valve set in .708 bore (for their E flat and F bass tubas).

IIRC, Martin factory bore was @ .718, a difference of .010 (one one-hundredth of an inch).

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:30 pm Those Dynasty (Weril) four-valve sousaphones are/were .728" bore.
The combinations of a slanted valveset + everything being brass would support an American appearance.
...and (well...) Weril instruments were (are?) made in (an) America...

Thanks, these are all great suggestions! I'll probably end up reaching out to Willson here soon just to see, and I'll keep my eyes peeled for the others on the used market just in case. In the meantime, I noticed the valve section for the Wessex CC helicon is not only ready-made to CC lengths, but also lies squarely at .710", and with the exception on the fit-for-a-sousaphone 4th valve wrap, seems perfect in theory, but alas, Wessex isn't shipping out parts to individuals at this time.

On the topic of bells, however, anyone know of a bell that is 6 1/8" diameter (19 3/4" in circumference) at the bottom bow ferrule, around 9 1/2" at the throat (, and a flare of anywhere from 18-22", is and around 24" tall?

“MartinMan” wrote:On the topic of bells, however, anyone know of a bell that is 6 1/8" diameter at the bottom bow ferrule, around 9 1/2" at the throat, and a flare of anywhere from 18-22", is and around 24" tall?

Thunderbird 6/4 CC tuba, sold by Mack Brass would be a very close match, I think (I suspect it’s based on the Martin 6/4). 20” flare.

(If you measure the circumference where the bell enters the bottom bow, you will have a better chance of finding a match, as most peoples’ tuba bells are attached to a horn, making a diameter measurement difficult)

Yorkboy wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:05 am

“MartinMan” wrote:On the topic of bells, however, anyone know of a bell that is 6 1/8" diameter at the bottom bow ferrule, around 9 1/2" at the throat, and a flare of anywhere from 18-22", is and around 24" tall?

Thunderbird 6/4 CC tuba, sold by Mack Brass would be a very close match, I think (I suspect it’s based on the Martin 6/4). 20” flare.

(If you measure the circumference where the bell enters the bottom bow, you will have a better chance of finding a match, as most peoples’ tuba bells are attached to a horn, making a diameter measurement difficult)

Edited the post to add the circumference measurement at that point. Thanks for the heads up

I'll look into the thunderbird

Still no luck tracking down a bell that works for this project.

Bumping this back up to the top too see if anyone knows of a bell with the above specified measurements

Thanks, everyone!

Martin Mammoth BBb bugle, Holton 340 valves (with additional 340 valve grafted on) and a Holton 340 bell. I had to trim a decent amount off the small end of the bell. Yes the big end of the Martin bottom bow was significantly larger than the big end of the Holton bottom bow.

Still sitting in project status.
Another thought: if you can find a Kanstul 5/4 BBb, I believe their bugle was based on a Martin Mammoth but had a 21” - 21.5” bell diameter. Most had a detachable bell but some had a fixed bell with soldered collar/ferrule.

York-aholic wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:57 pm Martin Mammoth BBb bugle, Holton 340 valves (with additional 340 valve grafted on) and a Holton 340 bell. I had to trim a decent amount off the small end of the bell. Yes the big end of the Martin bottom bow was significantly larger than the big end of the Holton bottom bow.

Still sitting in project status.

781E1AF1-D777-40DB-BF4B-BE142BACCF96.jpeg

Another thought: if you can find a Kanstul 5/4 BBb, I believe their bugle was based on a Martin Mammoth but had a 21” - 21.5” bell diameter. Most had a detachable bell but some had a fixed bell with soldered collar/ferrule.

That looks really good!

York-aholic wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:57 pm Martin Mammoth BBb bugle, Holton 340 valves (with additional 340 valve grafted on) and a Holton 340 bell. I had to trim a decent amount off the small end of the bell. Yes the big end of the Martin bottom bow was significantly larger than the big end of the Holton bottom bow.

Still sitting in project status.

781E1AF1-D777-40DB-BF4B-BE142BACCF96.jpeg

Another thought: if you can find a Kanstul 5/4 BBb, I believe their bugle was based on a Martin Mammoth but had a 21” - 21.5” bell diameter. Most had a detachable bell but some had a fixed bell with soldered collar/ferrule.

Wow, this looks like one cool project. Definitely keep us posted!

This project has proved too ambitious fore my current skillset, so if anyone would like to take up the reins of this, I'm selling the majority of the parts I planned to use, as well as a host of others, here: viewtopic.php?t=4163