TubaForum.net

I usually avoid the term because my music is generally written in concert pitch and it seems easier to keep it simple and think on this instrument i play that note with these fingers, but the note is always the same even if the fingers are different.

I have only once come across tuba music not in concert pitch subbing in a parade where the usual sousaphonist used Bb charts, so that was the part they had handy. They also played a bunch of music by ear, so i am sure i came up short on multiple fronts in that gig, but they were kind and didn't complain.

How do other folk end up interacting with the term "tranposing" in relation to tubas? Are there good conventions to adopt for clarity sake?

Anyway, i'll figure it out. I learned times tables long ago, i'm sure i can do this. I ask partly out of curiosity, and partly to inform me how to pick my words when answering a musician who plays transposing instruments higher in the band, and describes playing an Eb tuba as transposing. Which isn't wrong, its just feels like introducing an unnecessary complication in describing things.

Next on my agenda is to learn to walk...

The fact (and this was NOT purposeful, really) that my instruments (which are different lengths, and require different button-mashing for the same pitches) are NOT set up as "larger and smaller versions of the same valve arrangements" helps to "auto-remind" my brain of the button-mashing required for any instrument in particular...

...and yeah, my [comp' euphonium and E-flat tuba] AS WELL AS my [C tuba and kaiser baritone] are "set up" (valve config's and functions) the same way, but the WAY SMALLER MOUTHPIECES (on the 9-feet-long instruments) also act as "auto-reminders".

bloke "My brain, though, is weird - as should have been made obvious to all MANY YEARS AGO."

Just out of curiosity, were the Bb charts in treble or bass clef? Treble clef tuba parts is Bb are quite common, but bass clef parts in Bb . . . well, I’ve never seen one.

If your Eb friend was playing a Bb treble part on his Eb, he was transposing.

Hup

admission:
Just now - on the front end of what people label “old“ age - I am beginning to teach myself how to read tenor clef while playing euphonium… and doing so in the midst of pieces, where the clefs change back-and-forth.
(The euphonium is interesting me slightly more than in the past, and it’s tedious to ignore pieces of written music just because two clefs are involved.)
I have some music that I’ve downloaded that involves both clefs - music of which I know how it sounds (which is always the first type of music that one should probably be playing when learning to read a new clef or a new length of tuba). I imagine I’ll probably get a copy of the “real” Blashevich book - the clef studies.

Again, right now I’m leaning on music that I already have in my head to read with multiple clefs, and I’m also leaning on the fact that I can already easily read “b-flat treble clef“ music (which is located at the same place on the staff as tenor clef), but neither of those - obviously - are really adequate to label this skill as being mastered.

With this sort of thing, to do is to master.
Simply, we need to do.

As a horn player who regularly saw a wide variety of "transpositions" in orchestral music from the times when all they did was change crooks and then the notes were in the same place in the harmonic series as opposed to referring to pushing buttons....those players had to adjust what they expected to hear but had the harmonic series as reference. But we with double horns and valves just learned to push different valves for the different transpositions that represented the same pitches. I never could "transpose" because I just can't think that fast, that Oh for this entire piece every note is X notes above or below what I'm used to. Because I read by pitch and not fingering, it's not that different from what the OP is doing, mentally. He associates different fingerings with the dots on the page and so do I, but mentally we arrive at those fingerings differently. I took up horn at 45, and before that I read treble, bass, and alto clefs, so I learned "horn clef." Others followed as the music required.

hup_d_dup wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:49 am ... Treble clef tuba parts is Bb are quite common, but bass clef parts in Bb . . . well, I’ve never seen one.

Unfortunately it is all I see in The Netherlands, Bb in bass clef and written 1 octave higher
I believe they also use that system in Belgium and France

BramJ wrote: I believe they also use that system in Belgium and France

Correct, that't the system most used in Belgian (amateur) Wind bands.
Even without the transposition from C to BBb, transposing up an octave to get the majority of the notes in the staff is VERY useful.

More so, it keeps your brains active!
I play parts transposed to BBb and up an octave in the bass clef, transposed treble clef BBb and Eb (brassband style) and concert pitch bass clef on BBb and Eb tuba.
I can only play by ear on BBb tuba...

hup_d_dup wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:49 am Just out of curiosity, were the Bb charts in treble or bass clef? Treble clef tuba parts is Bb are quite common, but bass clef parts in Bb . . . well, I’ve never seen one.

If your Eb friend was playing a Bb treble part on his Eb, he was transposing.

Hup

In my instance, bass clef.

And seeing further comments, it was an octave higher.

Which didn't phase me, as i am string bass player as well.

(strangely what does phase me more, although partly just because the pieces i had to do it on were up tempo) was transposing a tuba part up an octave to play it on string bass, but the gotcha there is the typical flat keys, where suddenly none of your open strings are useful)

The only bass clef B-flat transposed parts that I have personally seen/played were those written by Richard Strauss for the so-called “tenor tuba”.
It’s been a while since I’ve played them, and - back then - there was no Internet - where I could simply download a non-transposed part.
As I recall, I got by using some sort of mental trick whereby I sort of related it to the C tuba.
Additionally, the parts were not wall-to-wall playing (Don Quixote, Heldenleben, etc.), and it was easy to remember how they “went“, which obviously assisted in the reading of the parts.

If presented with a, um, er, not conventional notation part, I will figure out a way to play it. But, damn, with world-wide internet access (arguable, but bear with me) and programs that notate and transpose, why would anybody not play either 1) concert pitch notation bass clef, or 2) transposed treble clef notation for British-style brass band, and since we no longer have to have group sessions to teach brass, the origin of notating brass band parts in transposed treble clef so all could learn together and any person could play any other instrument (save trombones) with the same fingerings, and I'm even questioning the brass band transposed treble clef notation. Even brass bands use concert pitch bass clef for the "bass" (read: 3rd) trombone part, with its history of these parts being played by the archaic Boosey G-trombone. There's just no reason for it anymore, including French C-clef trombone notation. If it is that high above the bass clef, use the "8va" indicator to take it up an octave.

As a guitarist, you surely read classically-noted *octave clef music, chord symbols, chord diagrams, tablature, the number system, and (rarely, but possibly) figured bass.

"They outah" stuff - often - is stuff that no one has the time nor inclination to do.

ie. "Let's transfer everything to c.d.'s"...now: obsolete (etc.)

______________________________________
* https://www.symbols.com/images/symbol/1 ... e-clef.png

iiipopes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:41 am If presented with a, um, er, not conventional notation part, I will figure out a way to play it. But, damn, with world-wide internet access (arguable, but bear with me) and programs that notate and transpose, why would anybody not play either 1) concert pitch notation bass clef, or 2) transposed treble clef notation for British-style brass band, and since we no longer have to have group sessions to teach brass, the origin of notating brass band parts in transposed treble clef so all could learn together and any person could play any other instrument (save trombones) with the same fingerings, and I'm even questioning the brass band transposed treble clef notation. Even brass bands use concert pitch bass clef for the "bass" (read: 3rd) trombone part, with its history of these parts being played by the archaic Boosey G-trombone. There's just no reason for it anymore, including French C-clef trombone notation. If it is that high above the bass clef, use the "8va" indicator to take it up an octave.

As stated earlier in this thread, the transposed bass clef is the notation most used in the Netherlands and Belgium. We have a lot of community bands, all with people who have learned to play with the transposed parts (the tradition over here is that everybody learns to play a D with 1 and 3 and a C sharp with 123)
Because of the enormous market here the publishers keep cranking out the transposed parts. Everyone new to the tuba learns reading these parts, so it is kind of a loop. I think the same loop exists in the UK for the Brassbands.

Bb treble clef parts don't seem so difficult to me - a written C is open fingering on BBb tuba (same for Eb tuba on Eb TC). I guess could get used to Bb bass clef parts - you can think CC fingerings on BBb tuba, right? (it is,of course, helpful to be fluent in CC fingerings). Either way, we learn what we learn, and things cease to be difficult regardless of all the helps, tips, tricks, etc. we might use to get started.

If called upon to play Eb bass in brass band, I'm not worried about reading Eb treble clef. A written C is open. I already do this on Bb treble clef playing Bb bass - a written C is open. The pattern transfers, so it's not as difficult (to me) as jumping from a Bb part in TC to a Bb part in BC. But again, we learn what we learn, and if I wanted or was required to learn to read Bb bass clef parts, I would.

For me, the biggest b!+C# is reading regular bass clef on Eb, and fortunately, it's not the hateful Karen that it first seemed it would be. And truthfully, I learned BBb, CC, and F, so there is no reason I shouldn't be able to learn Eb, save for dedicating time to actually doing it.

In the same way, anyone else can adjust, read different clefs, transpose, etc. if they really set their mind to it. Trumpet players regularly transpose different instruments with different parts, and many can interchange them with ease. Why? Because it's part of the deal for them, and they do it all the time. So if a TRUMPET PLAYER can do it (insert Neanderthal comparison here ), tuba players can definitely do it. We simply aren't offered the daily experience that trumpet players receive. But we are certainly capable.

And I apologize to all Neanderthals everywhere for the unfair comparison.

Doc (who has not read in alto or tenor clef in many years, and, capable or not, probably won't resume that line of study any time soon on any key of tuba)

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:08 am Doc (who has not read in alto or tenor clef in many years, and, capable or not, probably won't resume that line of study any time soon any any key of tuba)

...so the rest of y'all start buggin' Bill about buyin' a euphonium AND a trombone from bloke, ok?

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:15 am

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:08 am Doc (who has not read in alto or tenor clef in many years, and, capable or not, probably won't resume that line of study any time soon any any key of tuba)

...so the rest of y'all start buggin' Bill about buyin' a euphonium AND a trombone from bloke, ok?

I have a euphonium and a POS trombone. Maybe a bass bone??? Right after my wife buys that bag from Wade with her own money.

I thought you all had gone the other way and were talking about Trans, Voguing.

Doc wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:08 am For me, the biggest b!+C# is reading regular bass clef on Eb, and fortunately, it's not the hateful Karen that it first seemed it would be. And truthfully, I learned BBb, CC, and F, so there is no reason I shouldn't be able to learn Eb, save for dedicating time to actually doing it.

That’s where you pretend the regular (C) bass clef part is Eb treble clef, and add three sharps, and use your treble clef C fingerings, right? Anyway, that’s the reverse of what I’m doing to play Eb treble clef (brass band) parts on a non-Eb tuba (but one for which I know regular bass clef fingerings).

hup_d_dup wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:49 am If your Eb friend was playing a Bb treble part on his Eb, he was transposing.

Hup

Or...he was reading Bb treble clef and playing an Eb tuba.

Do you guys realize I have no idea how you do what you do, applying X fingering set to Y clef? I can't imagine the mental gymnastics to do that. It is SO much easier to know what pitches the dots represent and just play them on the instrument you have in your hands.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:05 pmIt is SO much easier to know what pitches the dots represent and just play them on the instrument you have in your hands.

^^^This is the best way.^^^

But folks often want an easy button.

I can make my brain speak the five basic tuba fingering “languages”… B-flat, C, E-flat, F, b-flat (octave).

Primarily, I can do all of them in bass clef (best), but I can also do them in treble clef, and I can also do them in B-flat treble clef.

The actual “transposing“ – for me – begins when I am playing one of those five fingering patterns and pretending as though it’s one of the other four. Secondary transposing occurs when I’m doing that PLUS pretending that I’m reading a different clef than I’m actually reading.

I will admit that some of this causes me to slow down my reading somewhat, but I also found out that – at least when sight-reading and doing some of that crazy $h!t - i’m not too bad at it, and - compared to some that I would consider to be “my betters“ - I hold my own quite well (regarding some of these nutty substitutions). In other words, when it’s THEIR turn to struggle with transposition (so that I - then - have an easier time reading my part of a duet - that wasn’t written for either of our instruments, I believe I might do slightly better than they do.

There’s no denying that the more substitutions one makes with fingerings and clefs, the more concentration is required, and the more uncomfortable one becomes. I certainly don’t claim to be a “savant“.