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None of the bands that I play in have a string bass player so the tubas quite often get passed those parts. I have always played pizzicato notes with a bit of length to them, with a decay to simulate the pluck and what happens afterward. One of the guys I sit next to always plays them staccato no matter what the context is.

What do you all do?

And - is there a difference between a pizz. half note and a pizz. eighth note with a rest after?

Thanks!

The only time I play notes - with a dot over them - really short is when I’m playing jazz style and matching the trombones or matching other instruments, or when there’s a dot over a note which is already one that takes up a very small amount of time.
The dot directs us to separate, and doesn’t mean to make a “tut” sound, necessary.

fwiw…
I’m the “jerk” in the section (if I find myself playing in a wind band section) who is actually playing the quarter note bass notes - in 6/8 time - as full 2/3rds of the beats (psst: which actually makes those 6/8 marches “swing”).

LibraryMark wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:00 pm I have always played pizzicato notes with a bit of length to them, with a decay to simulate the pluck and what happens afterward. One of the guys I sit next to always plays them staccato no matter what the context is.

This is exactly the way I play it, per the conductor's request ("Sleigh Ride" for instance). But yes, there is always that one who plays staccato on everything; there is also one in the section who pays no attention to any articulation markings. It's frustrating.

Bravo to both of you. I tend to do that most of the time on so-called “short” sounds - if I didn’t make that clear. I spend more time playing in orchestras, and then I’m not only doing it to only sound like a string bass; I’m also doing it to ~match~ the basses… and I usually manage to coax the trombonists to do the same thing - if they are not already doing it.

I already posted this, but the staccato “dot“ really does not mean short, but asks for separation. There are vertical slash marks - called “staccatissimo” - that are more likely to indicate that a composer/arranger is asking for sounds to be “very short“.

“European style” concert halls (which tend to offer reverberation more resembling that which is offered by cathedrals) will take care of this - without players needing to do it themselves, but that’s another topic.

LibraryMark wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:00 pm None of the bands that I play in have a string bass player so the tubas quite often get passed those parts. I have always played pizzicato notes with a bit of length to them, with a decay to simulate the pluck and what happens afterward. One of the guys I sit next to always plays them staccato no matter what the context is.

What do you all do?

And - is there a difference between a pizz. half note and a pizz. eighth note with a rest after?

Thanks!

If it is a string bass part asking for pizzicato, it should sound as if a string bass was playing pizz. If it is arco, then it should sound like a string bass playing arco.

Regarding string bass pizz, "Tut" is a dead king from Egypt.

Doc (Noting that "Tut" is common vocabulary to french horn and sometimes for the rest of us, when style dictates.)

I trying to match the string bass when you play with one is probably the most effective way to learn this skill.

I am too lazy to try to figure out how to describe it with words when i'm not even sure i do it well, but i do make an effort.

I have the down side of being a string bass player, so if they actually want me to sound like a string bass, well, i guess i have another and a bigger instrument to lug.

But ya know, that's the way it goes...

But every once in a while it goes the other way*.

I read a note on a bass part recently telling me to "sound like a tuba."

*- with apologies to Quentin Tarantino and True Romance.

humBell wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:51 pm I am too lazy to try to figure out how to describe it with words when i'm not even sure i do it well, but i do make an effort.

I have the down side of being a string bass player, so if they actually want me to sound like a string bass, well, i guess i have another and a bigger instrument to lug.

I was a string bass player for some 45 years, too, so it is easy for me to understand the sound I'm trying to duplicate. And yes, it is hard to put it into words. Arthritis bending my fingers finally put an end to the string playing. PIston valves are a challenge, too, but I can handle rotary spatulas just fine, unless one of those inflamed knuckles decides to act up.

Just before christmas the concert band i play in had the opportunity to play Alfred Reeds Russian Christmas Music.The tuba part is very sparse but the string bass part is not.As a result the tuba part is full of string bass cues.In one section there is a very long pizziacato section cued in the tuba part.On the back page of the conductors full score there are notes to the conductor explaining how certain sections of the piece are to be played.One paragraph,written by the composer,explains that if no string bass is available the tuba or any low woodwind should not play the long pizziacto section in question.The reasoning given was that no instrument can produce a pizzicato sound like the string bass.As we were just reading the piece one of our 3 tubas played the cues.Sounded fine to me.

eeflattuba wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:13 am Just before christmas the concert band i play in had the opportunity to play Alfred Reeds Russian Christmas Music.The tuba part is very sparse but the string bass part is not.As a result the tuba part is full of string bass cues.In one section there is a very long pizziacato section cued in the tuba part.On the back page there are notes to the conductor explaining how certain sections of the piece are to be played.One paragraph,written by the composer,explains that if no string bass is available the tuba or any low woodwind should not play the long pizziacto section in question.The reasoning given was that no instrument can produce a pizzicato sound like the string bass.As we were just reading the piece one of our 3 tubas played the cues.Sounded fine to me.

Lots of wind bands play Russian Christmas Music without a bass. That part might not sound quite right on a tuba, but you'd sure miss it if nobody played it at all.

True.Alot of bands play this classic.I just found it interesting that the composer advised that the part not be played by any other instrument but the string bass.Once we get back to our rehearsal space i plan to copy out the paragragh in question and try and post it here.For the record when i played it the conductor had no complaints and he said it sounded just fine.I think the part needs to be played by someone as it really adds something to the piece.

Imitating another instrument’s sound requires finesse and experience.
It’s completely understandable that a music director would be pessimistic - regarding a convincing imitation - until it was successfully demonstrated to them by a particular individual.

I just thought i would share the well known composer,Alfred Reeds thoughts on the tuba playing string bass cues in his piece titled Russian Christmas Music."The long solo pizzicato line for the string basses,beginning at 118 and continuing until five measures before 155,although cued in the tubas,contrabass clarinets,and contrabasson,should not really be attempted on these instruments.The music will be complete and will flow more smoothly without the line being present at all should there be no string basses available since the peculiar quality of the string bass pizzicato in conjunction with the the soft winds can not really be obtained in any other manner,no matter how well or delicately such a passage may be played by tuba,contabss clarinet,or contrabasson.."

I am not, and never will be an equal to Alfred Reed, but I think he's wrong on this issue. I've heard this played with a string bass where the bass stuck out like a sore thumb instead of blending, and I've heard this played with tubas that sounded just fine.

Not being argumentative and trying to be more of a realist…

Don’t the issues - outlined in the just previous post - rely on the competence of the players ?

Really fine musicians playing substitute instruments can “sell” even a even a mediocre composition, whereas incompetent players of instruments specifically scored by a composer of a masterwork can ruin a performance, yes?

In my half-century-plus of actual experiences with ensembles - and away from the theoretical, the least successfully musical players seem to be those who view a piece of paper - with staves and notes printed on it - as being absolute, and with nothing more and nothing less to be found nor interpreted, other than what’s printed.

I recall a small episode in a quintet rehearsal (with some of my betters - perhaps a little over a decade ago). I had my straight mute on hand for one or two pieces, but a selection from another suite of pieces - which was supposed to be painting an aural picture of an army approaching, passing, and then marching on past, towards the end of the piece - wasn’t quite selling itself.
All I did – in order to assist in making it more effective – was to pick up the mute and use it on the “bookends” of that movement of that suite, and – again – one of my betters described that simple action as “a stroke of genius“. …yet I can imagine some of the literalists being outraged, because the composers published piece of paper doesn’t specify using a mute.

I let the Bassoon play it. (Mock Morris)

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:52 am Imitating another instrument’s sound requires finesse and experience.
It’s completely understandable that a music director would be pessimistic - regarding a convincing imitation - until it was successfully demonstrated to them by a particular individual.

Perhaps a bit off-topic, but...a few years ago, I was in a performance and our oboist was unable to make it. Our intrepid principal trumpeter somehow had the perfect mute for the job, and played all the oboe solos so brilliantly, the effect was as if the music had been masterfully scored that way. We all showered him with congratulations afterward. It was one of the most remarkable things I've ever experienced on stage.

Some know that my daughter studied the oboe at Eastman and SMU.

When in grade school, I took a muted trumpet along and played some of my daughter's assigned lesson stuff at the bottom of the steps - inside the entrance of her teacher's apartment building (at the end of the lesson - just before they came out of the apartment)...and her teacher (Juilliard alum) asked me what make of oboe I had brought along to play.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:15 pm When in grade school, I took a muted trumpet along and played some of my daughter's assigned lesson stuff at the bottom of the steps - inside the entrance of her teacher's apartment building (at the end of the lesson - just before they came out of the apartment)...and her teacher (Juilliard alum) asked me what make of oboe I had brought along to play.

It would have been hard for me not to reply "Oh, it's a propeller-wood Pan American, and I make my own reeds."

I concur. Having played jazz/swing pizz on a double bass for a few years some years ago before my hands let me know to stick to tuba and bass guitar, I understand what is going on and that is how I play as well: a tad of decaying sustain. I find it especially important to work on this approach since my community band plays medley arrangements of Ellington, Sinatra, Miller, other big band transcriptions, etc.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:09 am
Don’t the issues - outlined in the just previous post - rely on the competence of the players ?

Really fine musicians playing substitute instruments can “sell” even a even a mediocre composition, whereas incompetent players of instruments specifically scored by a composer of a masterwork can ruin a performance, yes?

Yes, totally agree. Three or four decades ago, my band played a beautiful lyrical piece that featured both an alto sax solo and oboe solo. With a killer alto sax section that year but no oboist, I substituted a soprano sax for the oboe. The kid had to play in the extreme upper register, and we had to figure out some "exotic" fingerings to get it in tune. It went very well, and not one judge mentioned the lack of an actual oboe. The oboe player who graduated the year before wasn't a good enough player to handle it anyway. Young directors in small schools with small bands ask my opinion (as a judge) about this pretty often. I tell them that most judges just want to all the parts covered (regardless of what instrument covers what), good intonation, good sounds, precise rhythms, and, while they're at it, some good musicality thrown in.

That said, in the very large schools with large bands, it does make a difference that the instrument used is the one called for. But that is a different universe.