Please school- mouthpieces and high range

[DonO.]

Good morning! Just a short review of my situation. Retired music teacher and former tuba major who played quite a bit throughout my life, then quit playing, now a “comeback” player after 20 year hiatus. Bought a new King 2341 a little over four months ago and have been working towards getting back as much of what I’ve lost as possible. Generally, things have been going quite well! But I do have some concerns. One is range. When I was a young thing I had no range problems, on a BBb horn had the pedal tones easily and a nice solid F above the staff, which I never had to actually use but was nice to have. Now, on the comeback trail, on this horn, I again have good low range and even pedal tones back, but high range has been a struggle. Bb above the staff solid, C pretty solid but less so, D is a crap shoot (literally and figuratively) and Eb just won’t come at all. Just ugly out of control noises. Of course this leads me to the inevitable is it me? The mouthpiece? The horn? Or a combination? One thing I will say is I have tried only 2 different mouthpieces- the Bach 18 that came with it, and the Conn Helleberg Standard that is what I used most of my life. On the 18, the high range comes a little easier, but low range suffers. On the Helleberg, low and mid range are just gorgeous (if I do say so myself!) but high range is more difficult. Given these factors, are there any suggestions out there of mouthpieces I might want to try? Ideally I would like a mouthpiece that makes low and high equally easy. The holy grail. I know that some of you guys own a lot of mouthpieces, presumably because you tried a lot looking for “the one”. At today’s prices one could easily spend almost the price of another horn on mouthpieces to try, most of which won’t work out. I don’t want to go down that road, so hoping I can get some wisdom to narrow my search down. I will also say that the idea of a solid stainless mouthpiece appeals to me, we didn’t have those back in the day, I used to send my silver plated mouthpieces out to be re-plated. But of course they’re more expensive, which makes ordering one that doesn’t work out even worse. On a related subject, am I just being unrealistic about trying to get back very high range on this horn, in this stage of my life? Is that something young folk can pull off but is just out of reach for a geezer like myself? As usual, any advice is sincerely appreciated!

[Three Valves]

"on a BBb horn had the pedal tones easily and a nice solid F above the staff, which I never had to actually use but was nice to have. Now, on the comeback trail, on this horn, I again have good low range and even pedal tones back, but high range has been a struggle. Bb above the staff solid,"

Highlighted for your entertainment.

There is nothing in the community band rep or Bordogni etude series that your range will not cover.

I like the idea of a stainless mouthpiece as well but have not made the jump.

[prairieboy1]

Congratulations on your return to the tuba! I use the same horn for my primary playing instrument and they are very good in many settings. I know that my high range, to a D above the staff, was only achieved through "facetime" on the horn. I am now 62 and I am playing better now than I ever have. Those squeaks and squawks will become aurally pleasing with enough work. If you are playing at home, even better. I have also been down the "mouthpiece trail" and realized that it was me and not the mouthpiece. Try several others if you can and then put in the time and that range will come back for you. My mouthpiece is a PT50+ and it works really well. Best of luck!

[Rick Denney]

Your range is already as good as mine on Bb tuba. Just play music—one advantage of being an amateur is no need to keep score.

Your mouthpieces are fine and not the problem.

Add high stuff to your practice repertoire and work on it sensibly. High range will either extend or it won’t, but it also won’t diminish. A favorite of mine that will never, ever see public performance is the Gregson Concerto. That goes up to Eb above the staff (and optionally the G above that) in satisfyingly heroic ways. It was written for F tuba.

But when I spend too much time working the high range, given my typically amateur lack of practice consistency, I start to injure myself. Pay attention and don’t overdo it.

Any more, in band situations on Bb, tremor has made anything above about G on the staff unreliable in a performance situation. Still solid to somewhat above the staff on F tuba, though tremor challenges me on that instrument in the low register.

Enjoy what you’ve got.

Rick “never had good fundamentals” Denney

[Dan Tuba]

I don't think that you are too old for playing above the staff For me, the most challenging part of being a tuba player, is being able to fulfill all the requirements in the various roles that I am asked to play. It's even more challenging if I have limited access to equipment. Unfortunately, most of the time I have been playing/performing, I have only had access to one tuba... usually a BBb (I have four kiddos, and a single income ) Since this is your situation(one tuba, not four kiddos ), I would recommend acquiring a second mouthpiece, s "solo" mouthpiece. The best formula I have found, if I am in a "one tuba" situation, is to have a great all-purpose mouthpiece (in those situations where I don't know what to expect), a great contrabass mouthpiece (for large ensembles, lots of "bass" type of situation), and a great "solo" mouthpiece (for high tuba excerpts, or solo literature primarily written in and above the staff).

For example, for me, that would look something like this 1).(Bach 24AW - all purpose, trigger warning some people hate this mouthpiece, works for me ),
2) (Giddings Talladega - contrabass mouthpiece, excellent for when the tuba is primarily asked to function in the "bass" role)
3) (RT/PT 64 - solo, or high tuba excerpt mouthpiece, for me, surprisingly works well in most BBb tubas and sousaphones, with minimal intonation challenges)

*This may sound a little bit crazy However, with a little bit of practice, the transition between three different mouthpiece set ups is far easier to navigate than trying to execute all of the physical demands of different types of musical requirements for the tuba all on one mouthpiece. Especially if one wants to avoid the potential for injury "The right tool for the job"

Unfortunately, we can't always afford to have/keep multiple tubas (contrabass and bass tubas), but we can usually afford to purchase/keep a few different mouthpieces.

With all of that said, I pretty much have the same "range" on all of the mouthpieces... but some mouthpieces are much easier to create the right "voice" and maintain the stamina required to execute in certain playing conditions.

As far as stainless steel mouthpieces are concerned, I have found them to be excellent options for mouthpieces. The material itself is very durable, super comfortable, efficient, and it has the capability of sounding as good, if not better than standard silver plated brass mouthpieces. Most of the companies selling them offer a trial period as well.

Welcome back to playing the tuba!

[DonO.]

Great replies so far! Thanks to all who responded so far. I am intrigued by the prospect of having 3 different mouthpieces for different purposes. The Bach 18 I already have qualifies as an all purpose I think. The Helleberg standard for enhanced lower notes and volume for music that requires that. So all I really need to find is a “solo” mouthpiece that enhances the high range for my horn.

[DonO.]

Those high notes are mainly a function of embouchure strength and air support. Mouthpiece diameter, cup shape, and throat never really impacted my range, but rather the stability of those notes. Or in the case of the extreme lower register, maybe the immediate accessibility of said notes.

That being said, sometimes a new mouthpiece simply inspires more focused practice, resulting in the desired outcome nonetheless.

[Ace]

I mostly used a PT-50 in my ten years on CC tuba in a good quality community orchestra. It took me up to F above the staff with no particular struggle and the low range was fairly easy. Quite resonant, actually. However, in an orchestra contracted by the Berkeley Community Chorus to do three performances and a CD recording of Brahms Requiem, I clammed some F's in practice sessions here in my home. I called Lee Stofer for advice and he mailed me a Rudy Meinl 9 mouthpiece which enabled me to secure the top range in the Requiem.

Best wishes to you in your return to tuba playing.

Ace

[JRaymo]

I’ve found the Pares scales a good source for practice. The brass gym book by Patrick Sheridan and Sam Pilafian. There are these bugle studies which would be really helpful. I stopped playing when I started a family and I’m still slowly getting back. Those booked helped me. Regarding mouthpieces I do play stainless ones. I like the Sellmansberger mouthpieces a lot. Also Giddings mouthpieces are nice. The Sellmansberger models are screw shank and rims so in theory you might save a little buying three different diameter rims vs three complete mouthpieces. The upper register practice helped me more than any equipment. I’m still not where I was when I stopped playing.

[acemorgan]

About 3 years ago, I sold my BBb Miraphone and bought a euphonium. I played the euph exclusively for about 2 years, and then I had occasion to borrow a Meinl BBb tuba for a gig.

After 2 years of euphonium work, my upper range on the Meinl was freaky high. I literally could play the Bb an octave above the staff. It wasn't a good sound, but I could hit it. And the "normal" high of C to F above the staff was easy.

Like others have said, that type of range is usually not required in the traditional band repertoire. So I would add that you are fine where you are.

But . . . if you are looking for a mouthpiece solution, buy a "vanilla" euphonium mouthpiece, stick a euphonium on the end of it, play it daily for a couple years, then try the tuba again.

Your results may vary.

[MN_TimTuba]

You and I share many similarities: I'm 63, a recovering HS band director, my main tuba is a new style King 2341. Unlike you, I never stopped playing, and I play trumpet, trombone, and euphonium at various times and practice on them randomly, but at the end of the day I am just a tuba player.
I've never felt it was the tuba restricting my upper range, and for decades I played on my former BAT solos that went well above the staff. Scales and arpeggios have always been the best thing for me, both for extending/solidifying my range (both upper and lower) and for ear training. When I do arpeggios I always aim for the 3rd above the root before I head back down, it seems to help me solidify that upper tonic. Also I remind myself to crescendo noticeably when ascending. But, you know all that.
As far as mouthpieces, I use 3 on my King: My Wessex Chief Helleberg is my do everything piece; my Marcinkiewicz N4* Tommy Johnson for solos; and from Lee Stofer a PT-88 that just roars on the low register and works well up high - it's kind of taking over as my EDC mouthpiece. As Dan Tuba already commented, I find that my range is about the same on each piece, but the tone/facility changes. I was told by my former well-known tuba teacher that "air is the gasoline that make your tuba go", so when I go especially high I 'step on the gas'. I think air and embouchure are the keys to focus on. For myself, anyway.
Those are my thoughts.
Welcome back to playing tuba! I trust you'll have great fun and have plenty of opportunities to perform!
Tim

[jtm]

This is boring, but will likely do the trick. Be patient. Start with a range that's easy and comfortable.

it's very boring.

http://brianshook.com/resources/Studio- ... outine.pdf

[Jperry1466]

I play a CC and have two mouthpieces for different uses. One is a PT-82 which has a very nice low register and allows me to better blend with the BBb tubas in our community band. It drives me crazy to have the "different" sound in the section. I can play above the staff with it, but the rounded cup makes me really work for it. I play a lot of Tuba 1 parts in our local tuba ensemble, and for that I use a Helleberg-type mouthpiece with a small throat inside. It makes for less work and better use of air but really suffers in the low register. It is one I found in the back room of a music store years ago, an old Buescher 33 with a flat rim, that I had replated and re-shanked since the old one was so damaged. I am not sure, but it may have been intended for an Eb tuba. The Rex Conner "special" that I got from him has a similar throat, so those two make me think the smaller throat is the answer, but you will not like it in the lower register. Rex taught us to play very high even on BBb and CC tubas. At 70, I can still play a strong F above the staff and everything below that but the E next to it (that model of horn seems to have that problem). But my point is, like Rick and Three Valves say, how many times will I need a high E in the real world for community band or even tuba ensemble. So far, none.

I laid off playing for many years while I finished my teaching career. When I started playing again, I made myself practice 2+ hours per day for several months, and the chops finally came back. As you get older, you will probably appreciate a mouthpiece that makes the most efficient use of your air.

[bloke]

About the only way to extend range is to manage to squeak out an ugly piece of a pitch, and then spend time over the next weeks making that pitch - or the next one or two or three pitches - sound better than squeaks and more like the rest of your range.
Often, D is a bit nebulous on B-flat tubas.
You are doing fine.

[BuddyRogersMusic]

Welcome back to playing and keep at it. I would suggest a B.E.R.P. or similar buzz aid first before delving into a cycle of buying/selling mouthpieces. The buzz aids are what I call "lie detectors" and will let you know when the horn has become a crutch instead of an efficient amplifier. Start with notes that you feel have good sound, pitch, attack, and decay, and play them with the buzz aid. Go up and down by half steps and, as Bloke stated, make that good sound on all the neighboring notes. Go back and forth on/off the horn and listen to your results. Be patient with yourself and have fun with it.

Golf analogy: not too many people hit the ball straight and 280 yards the first time, or even the fiftieth time out. Consistent and patient practice will yield results.

[DonO.]

Thank you all again for the responses! This has all been great! Lots to consider. I am still intrigued by trying a “solo” mouthpiece. But the BERP buzzing exercises sounds good too. And playing euphonium? I already have one but I ignore it. Could try that too! You know, I never did think anyone I ever heard play that high on a BBb sounded great. With my tuba playing peers in my youth, it was done mostly for “bragging rights”. It’s nice to know that I’m doing ok, this is all normal for this kind of horn, and that there are things I can work on to improve it.

[Dan Tuba]

This is about what playing high on a large BBb usually sounds like (This with my all purpose mouthpiece, 24AW). So don't stress too much over it, or feel bad, the struggle is real

[LibraryMark]

I too took a long time off, after I got married. I've only been back at it for 5 years or so.

When I was in college I was all about the high stuff. Played on a Miraphone 184. I could (then) play as high as anybody. I think it might have been part of being a trumpet player before I took up tuba. But my low range was never anything to write home about, and my college prof never really pushed that part of my playing (or I more likely just wasn't paying attention). But after spending a short stint a brass band I found that the real money is in the low range. I used to think that I'd never have a big low range it but found out it's like anything else - practice it enough and it starts to work.

Still can play higher than anyone in the community bands I play in but I have a whole lot more fun honking out the notes 1st Bb below the staff and beyond, both written and (ahem) added. These days I play a PT-88 on a VMI 3302.

[bloke]

If you can solidify your three octave D scale, that’s probably all you need, unless you are some sort of soloist - or have been recruited into a brass quintet that plays gymnastic types of pieces.
In the past, I used to spend time discovering how crazy loud I could play low pitches - much in the same way that you may have heard college boys show off in front of each other. Later, I realized that no one - other than some nerdy no-gigs tuba jock - is interested in hearing that noise, and concentrated on playing in that range - as loud as I needed to - without my sound being much different from how I sound an octave higher.
I never really discussed this with anyone, but a low brass playing (very critical ears) recording engineer - who records several orchestras - complimented me once (and he has recorded me with a particular orchestra dozens of times, and with some “name“ trombonists sitting next to me) regarding the type of sound I get in the low range, even referring to some so-called “name“ tuba players - and how raspy their sound comes across (same type of sound as I described above) in recordings in the same range at the same volume level. Compliments are always nice, but I realized at that point that I was accomplishing my goals, and that’s even nicer than compliments.
Playing that upper D or E flat is a far easier accomplishment than a beautiful double low D at fortissimo. I don’t buy into the “you’ve got to play low to play high“ BS, but I do buy into the “low range on tuba is far more important than high range“ logic/reality…
…and – with the ignorance-based 21st century orchestrators’ understanding of the tuba being “an octave lower than a bass trombone”, we are going to encounter more and more low D’s and fewer and fewer hi D’s…at least I predict this to be so.

[royjohn]

I have a slightly different take on this than others. First I would say that you have to do most of your practice in the "cash register" that is probably from about low C (two ledger lines below the bass clef) and about an octave and a half over that. Below that you practice 20% of the time and in the high range maybe another 20%.

I made my comeback at 56 (74 now) on trumpet and tried all kinds of embouchure systems...it wasn't until I met Dave Wilken, a Reinhardt guy, that I learned how to play easily to trumpet high C and way beyond. Due to medical issues (hernia) I switched to tuba. I find that what Dave taught me was equally applicable to tuba. You can look at Dave's writings on embouchure at Wilktone.com. Basically you need to figure out where to place your mpc and how your embouchure moves as you ascend and descend. There are Very High placements (me), Medium High placements and Low placements. Once you figure out your proper placement and embouchure motion, everything becomes a lot easier. Dave determined that my motion was up and slightly to the left to ascend and down and slightly back to the right to descend. It was the slight deviation from straight up and down that was the key for me. Now I find that there is quite a bit of movement to the left when I get into the high register over about top line A. I also find that I need a little bit of "roll-in" on my lips in the high register.

If you have any interest in this kind of thing, it is just an hour or two of reading and watching the videos to figure it all out. It is pretty easy to move the horn around on particular notes to see which way (angle) sounds best.

I don't doubt that some mpcs will make the high register easier, or the low. But if you learn how to play it right, I think the high range (and the low) will be a lot easier. If you want to explore this with a teacher, both Dave and his teacher, Doug Elliot, who is on this forum, do on line lessons...