Page 1 of 2
Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:37 pm
by RJ
Hi,
I'm currently practicing the Gregson on a Helleberg 120-S and a CC Miraphone 186 clone and I was wondering if there was a comparable, smaller mouthpiece that might help to space the upper partials out a bit, (can a mouthpiece do that?) or at least in some way, shape, or form help make the E above the staff easier to hit (Smaller ID, maybe?)
I can hit the F# (11th partial) above that E with (relative) ease but even fingering the note instead of playing it open doesn't make it any easier, I just have to pray or press, and neither of those are ideal.
For reference, the Helleberg works perfectly fine for me for everything else, from pedals up to D above the staff. Is the Helleberg 7B my best option or something else? Or should I just practice hitting that partial more?
Thanks!
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:45 pm
by matt g
The 7B is a good point of departure.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:03 pm
by JRaymo
Laskey had a nice one that was more of an F tuba size in the Helleberg style. I think it was the 30F but not sure if that’s the correct number.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:04 pm
by JRaymo
Laskey had a nice one that was more of an F tuba size in the Helleberg style. I think it was the 30F but not sure if that’s the correct number.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:36 am
by Mikelynch
Some here will know, I’m sure, if there was a Laskey counterpart to his Schilke Helleberg ll F; and if so, if that is being made by Eastman.
Mike
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:51 am
by bloke
This is not a budget mouthpiece, but my Sellmansberger “Imperial” modular stainless steel mouthpiece is one of the shallower of all of the funnel style mouthpiece choices.
Lots of choices of rims and shank sizes…
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:12 am
by matt g
I’m pretty sure Scott Laskey made a 30F. However, Laskey Mouthpieces under Eastman is not producing any 30F pieces at the moment.
Someone could reach out to them and they may have them in queue. They focused on the 30H first and have been slowly expanding their offerings. The H cup is available in 28H, 30H, and 32H. The Geib style cup is available in 30G and 32G.
I’m sure if some people are asking for a 28F and 30F, they will look into production, if they aren’t already.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:39 am
by barry grrr-ero
Looking at Miraphone's own mouthpiece chart, it looks to me that the TU11 or TU13 could work well. I own a TU13 (Winston Morris), but it might be more bowl shaped than you'd care for. Shallow funnels don't work well for me, but the TU11 might be what you're looking for.
I cant testify that Bloke (Joe Sellmansberger) puts together really good mouthpiece combinations.
It's interesting to me that you talk about the high F# being relatively easier to hit. When I last played the "Rite of Spring", I brought two tubas. I was on the second part, so I did most of it on a Miraphone 188. Some of the upper stuff I did on Besson 3+1 a compensating Eb. But when it came to the repeated jump between the fourth line F and the high F# above, I found it to be much easier to nail on the 188.
https://www.hornguys.com/products/mirap ... mouthpiece
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:16 pm
by Doc
RJ wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:37 pm
Hi,
I'm currently practicing the Gregson on a Helleberg 120-S and a CC Miraphone 186 clone and I was wondering if there was a comparable, smaller mouthpiece that might help to space the upper partials out a bit, (can a mouthpiece do that?) or at least in some way, shape, or form help make the E above the staff easier to hit (Smaller ID, maybe?)
I can hit the F# (11th partial) above that E with (relative) ease but even fingering the note instead of playing it open doesn't make it any easier, I just have to pray or press, and neither of those are ideal.
For reference, the Helleberg works perfectly fine for me for everything else, from pedals up to D above the staff. Is the Helleberg 7B my best option or something else? Or should I just practice hitting that partial more?
Thanks!
I agree that a 7B is a less-expensive jumping off point. But for a solid long-term recommendation, I'd recommend you try a Laskey 30F (if you can find one) or a Sellmansberger Imperial.
I use a Sellmansberger Imperial with Profundo (tall) rim with my 186 CC, and it is the perfect combination. If I were to want some additional high range confidence and reinforcement, I would used the Imperial with the standard (shorter) rim. That combo definitely sings above the staff... well, as much as I can make it sing. And that is the real (and long-term) solution - you making it sing. Yes, yes... we all know equipment is not a substitute for practice, but we also know that proper practice
AND proper equipment will make your job a lot easier. Good luck on your research and trials!
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:24 pm
by GC
Warburton is best known for trumpet mouthpieces, but his tuba mouthpieces in deep and extra-deep cups are excellent if you want a funnel cup. He makes a wide variety of cup diameters and cup depths. I use a Warburton "The Grail" T.G.4 most of the time on my JP377.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:31 pm
by iiipopes
Blessing 18. Yes, it is more of a bowl than a funnel, but it is the best 18 Bach never made. The shallower bowl can help with upper partial confidence. There are others, including the PT's in the 60-70 model numbers that are more for F tubas, but the throats in my opinion are too small and you can't get enough air through them to get the upper range stability sought for a CC tuba.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:43 pm
by donn
GC wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:24 pm
Warburton is best known for trumpet mouthpieces, but his tuba mouthpieces in deep and extra-deep cups are excellent if you want a funnel cup.
I have a Dillon F1-B mouthpiece, that I think is a Warburton production? From an earlier era, maybe 10 years ago. Nothing about that really looks unusual - shallow, quite rounded rim, a little wider rim opening than a Conn 120, the usual hybrid cup shape. It's remarkably clear and easy to point, I have nothing else that sounds like it. I wonder if whatever magic is in that F1, is also in his regular tuba line? His page doesn't say much about dimensions or characteristics, beyond the rim opening. I see his Helleberg copies have relatively large throats, for what it's worth.
For a Helleberg type mouthpiece, my experience is that we have few alternatives that really qualify. The Conn Helleberg models have distinctly more of a "funnel" shape, than most mouthpieces that use that term in their marketing blurbage. And some (but not all) Schilke models, and naturally any reasonably fastidious copy of a Helleberg (like the Warburton Grails.) The F1 certainly wasn't.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:01 pm
by JRaymo
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:51 am
This is not a budget mouthpiece, but my Sellmansberger “Imperial” modular stainless steel mouthpiece is one of the shallower of all of the funnel style mouthpiece choices.
Lots of choices of rims and shank sizes…
Ill second the Imperial. Lots of rim choices and a really great mouthpiece. My personal favorite with my Eb tuba. The profound rim is almost like it performs like owning a second mouthpiece in the way it changes the sound vs the standard rim.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:04 pm
by Doc
JRaymo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:01 pm
bloke wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:51 am
This is not a budget mouthpiece, but my Sellmansberger “Imperial” modular stainless steel mouthpiece
is one of the shallower of all of the funnel style mouthpiece choices.
Lots of choices of rims and shank sizes…
Ill second the Imperial. Lots of rim choices and a really great mouthpiece. My personal favorite with my Eb tuba. The profound rim is almost like it performs like owning a second mouthpiece in the way it changes the sound vs the standard rim.
It’s also my choice for the Eb helicon and on the new Eb bass.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:46 pm
by RJ
I think I'll just go with the 7B until I can drop a little more money, then I'll probably get the Sellmansberger. Maybe after I get a bass tuba sometime in the distant future...
Thanks to everyone who responded!
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:33 pm
by jtm
barry grrr-ero wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:39 am
... But when it came to the repeated jump between the fourth line F and the high F# above, I found it to be much easier to nail on the 188.
Because the 188 is just amazing?
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:03 pm
by WC8KCY
Another vote here for the Imperial. For me, it just does everything well on both my big E-flat and 3/4 BB-flat horns.
I really should sell off the mouthpieces that are gathering dust (PT-31, PT-64, Schilke 66) since I got my Imperial.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:35 am
by barry grrr-ero
jtm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:33 pm
barry grrr-ero wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:39 am
... But when it came to the repeated jump between the fourth line F and the high F# above, I found it to be much easier to nail on the 188.
It was a prototype 188, so it wasn't THAT amazing. While the high F# popped out on it, it wasn't good for the repetitious chant that the two tubas play, just before the end of Part I (Rite of Spring). I used the Besson Eb on that passage, and my partner used his Yamaha 822 F. The low register was too 'barky' for my taste on that prototype 188. I tried different pipes on it, and found that I liked it with a bigger pipe. The low register didn't speak quite as fast with that pipe, but it made the low register more 'symphonic' sounding. I knew someone who got a lot of mileage out of a gold brass 188.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:50 am
by matt g
Coming back to this thread to note that I also use an Imperial cup, Imperial Euro shank, and with a 33.5mm HLB2 rim.
I use this on my 2165, a 6/4 CC. I don’t use it for security in the high register, rather a bit of tonal clarity. Maybe that’s kinda the same thing?
Anyhow, it’s a fantastic mouthpiece.
Re: Helleberg-like smaller mouthpieces
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:09 am
by bloke
I personally use the Imperial cup (with a 1/8 inch taller “Profundo” rim) on my big compensating E flat - and I mean “big”, because it’s a rare recording bell model with a 22 inch bell, because - with that instrument - it offers me a combination of clarity, fatness, and facility… as I nearly exclusively use that instrument as a “fake B-flat recording bass” in jazz combos.
I also use the Imperial cup mouthpiece with a -standard-height rim (occasionally) with my rotary F tuba, to imitate the resonance of some of the piston F tubas, and without having to suffer-with/negotiate typical piston F tuba (well: awful
) intonation characteristics.
I have also discovered that it’s my favorite set up – with a tall rim - when I’m playing on someone’s PT6-P - as those instruments (to me) offer so little treble and so little front (actually, less than with most 6/4 models, in my experience), in their natural resonance and articulation - that combination seems to improve both of those characteristics - with that commonly-owned model.
Everyone finds their own reasons to use various mouthpieces with various models.
) intonation characteristics. 