TubaForum.net

Typically, retailers are NOT supposed to attempt to tell their customers how to engage them...ie.

The customer is already right!

I'm going to break that rule (as I tend to break many), and possibly risk alienating some people...but here goes:

If you are a younger person (or even an older person, who is in a relationship where a partner or spouse must sign off on and OK major purchases), please have a very specific meeting with parents or a spouse/partner prior to contacting a retailer about a major purchase (such as a $2000-and-up tuba or euphonium). If funding is coming from multiple sources, please confirm the availability of those funds from ALL sources, prior to any dialog with a seller.

Several people, lately, seemed to have involved themselves in extensive dialogs (with me) regarding purchases, and then - on the scheduled "buying day", apologize that they are not able to follow through.

Emergencies happen (and one person was candid with me - telling me that their parents were unwilling to fund), but you're consuming another human beings' time (>> time out of their life...and not just looking at something on a webpage over-and-over) when feigning a purchase in an ACTUAL person-to-person human dialog, knowing full well that the "fantasy purchase" (??), ultimately, will not occur.

highly recommended order of actions:
1. COMPLETE funding, and authorization of other parties (parents, spouse, partner, etc.)
2. contacting a seller (whether a retailer or a private individual)

Word DOES tend to get around regarding those who engage in lengthy insincere dialogs regarding the acquisition of equipment.

If anyone reading this believes it's "just about them"...actually, it's about five or six people, and five or six different instruments...and it's NOT about other people - who ONLY communicated with me once or twice and then indicated that they were not interested in an item after all. A handful of initial contacts (indicating some interest) is JUST FINE and is WELCOME and EXPECTED.

Finally, I screw up...A LOT...but I try to NOT mislead, or engage others in my own acquisition fantasies.

OK...You can now be angry/annoyed with me for posting this...or not.

Tire-kickers can be exhausting. Anyone who has sold a vehicle on Craigslist knows how weird the general population can be.

Every time I go to Dillon Music, it’s with intent to purchase. First and foremost, it’s a 3-4 hour drive depending on traffic. That’s time and fuel I can do something else with. I’m guessing that if I lived closer, I might make more trips, but the threshold to buy would be lower (accessories and such). I saw on a few occasions guys that were tire kickers with no intent to buy anything, it seemed. Steve Dillon and crew (shout out to Matt Walters) are saints dealing with some of these types.

Regardless, people don’t go to the grocery store simply to squeeze and smell the fresh produce with no intent or ability to buy. (At least most people...)

I kick tires, I ask questions, but I don’t talk about money or a deal unless I’m willing to buy.

Now.

The customer is always right.

There are no stupid questions.

We are all in this together.

Eschew bromides, platitudes and the cliche!!

I've been a tire kicker a few times, but always as research with the intent to ultimately purchase something. I have done this with Joe, Matt, Roger, and others - and God bless them for their patience and willingness to help - but I have spent small fortunes with them over the years, so I hope they ultimately didn't mind (realizing my intentions were purpose-driven, not me trying to feed some idle curiosity by simply "kicking tires" and wasting their time).

If the "customer" goes to the brick and mortar, spends three-four hours of the sales staff's time on multiple visits, mooches free advice and puts fingerprints all over a horn and then buys it mail order then brings it to the original brick and mortar dealer for warrantee service, the customer is not right.

The Big Ben wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:38 am If the "customer" goes to the brick and mortar, spends three-four hours of the sales staff's time on multiple visits, mooches free advice and puts fingerprints all over a horn and then buys it mail order then brings it to the original brick and mortar dealer for warrantee service, the customer is not right.

“Warranty“ work is never done for free. The company whose name is on the instrument pays a repair guy or a company to do the “warranty“ work.
I have different rates that I charge - from $0.00 to exorbitant - depending on the situation.
A year or two ago, a kid (bad accident) really really effed up their (silver, of all things) John Packer piston C tuba (bought elsewhere). I had to do quite a bit to make that thing back into a tuba… It was not warranty work; it was more like repairing a badly wrecked very nice car. What I did NOT appreciate was the student’s yankee teacher contacting me and warning me to not do a slipshod job. Even though the student was a teenager, he called me and told me that his teacher behaving like that embarrassed him very much. I told the mature young man that his teacher’s ridiculous behavior would have no effect on the diligence of my work.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:39 pm

The Big Ben wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:38 am If the "customer" goes to the brick and mortar, spends three-four hours of the sales staff's time on multiple visits, mooches free advice and puts fingerprints all over a horn and then buys it mail order then brings it to the original brick and mortar dealer for warrantee service, the customer is not right.

“Warranty“ work is never done for free. <cut>

Yes, I knew you charge or charged it back to the distributor. But it's a hassle when you don't make the money for the sale.

DO NOT make an offer if your not a real buyer!!!

saxophyte wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:09 am DO NOT make an offer if you're not a real buyer!!!

I go into shops to browse often enough (until March, that is) that I don't feel guilty for doing so. Joe's advice applies to planners, but often my decision to buy is made when a complex set of conditions come together all at once. I call that a unique buying opportunity.

• Do I want the item?

• Does it have a good story?

• Does it fulfill the requirements I have constructed? (Not all of these are rational, but they are all still requirements.)

• Does it speak to me?

• Do I have the money?

Here's the thing: The item that speaks to me, fulfills my requirements, has a good story, and that I want costs what it costs. If I go in with a budget first, I'll never find anything that satesfies those other needs. But if all those things are true, then I start a conversation with the seller. "What can we work out?" And we either work something out or we don't. The key is honest communication on both sides.

But when I'm just browsing, I tell the salesperson, "I'm just browsing and I appreciate your showing me things. But should an actual customer need attention, please abandon me immediately and without concern." Some of the things I buy just have to be examined in person before I can even know if I'm interested, and often enough I've run across something that I walked out with, that I had not planned to buy when I walked in. Some shop salespeople hear me say that and then ignore me so that they can go prop up a wall at the back of the otherwise empty shop. My browsing usually comes to an end pretty quickly there.

Example: I've looked at a LOT of tubas over the years at Dillon's, which I think is one of the great stores and which I think has earned our custom in many ways. But all those factors have never aligned, until this year. Matt Walters knows that over those years I've bought several instruments from Baltimore Brass (also a great store), but he never let it bother him. "I know that someday you'll be hooked by something we have."

But it's true that I'm in charge of my own finances, too. When I'm working a deal, I'm the decision-maker. That's the issue Joe is raising: negotiating with the person who is not the decision-maker, at least for some critical part of the decision process.

Rick "always identify the decision-maker" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:23 am I go into shops to browse often enough (until March, that is) that I don't feel guilty for doing so. Joe's advice applies to planners, but often my decision to buy is made when a complex set of conditions come together all at once. I call that a unique buying opportunity.

• Do I want the item?

• Does it have a good story?

• Does it fulfill the requirements I have constructed? (Not all of these are rational, but they are all still requirements.)

• Does it speak to me?

• Do I have the money?

Here's the thing: The item that speaks to me, fulfills my requirements, has a good story, and that I want costs what it costs. If I go in with a budget first, I'll never find anything that satesfies those other needs. But if all those things are true, then I start a conversation with the seller. "What can we work out?" And we either work something out or we don't. The key is honest communication on both sides.

But when I'm just browsing, I tell the salesperson, "I'm just browsing and I appreciate your showing me things. But should an actual customer need attention, please abandon me immediately and without concern." Some of the things I buy just have to be examined in person before I can even know if I'm interested, and often enough I've run across something that I walked out with, that I had not planned to buy when I walked in. Some shop salespeople hear me say that and then ignore me so that they can go prop up a wall at the back of the otherwise empty shop. My browsing usually comes to an end pretty quickly there.

Example: I've looked at a LOT of tubas over the years at Dillon's, which I think is one of the great stores and which I think has earned our custom in many ways. But all those factors have never aligned, until this year. Matt Walters knows that over those years I've bought several instruments from Baltimore Brass (also a great store), but he never let it bother him. "I know that someday you'll be hooked by something we have."

But it's true that I'm in charge of my own finances, too. When I'm working a deal, I'm the decision-maker. That's the issue Joe is raising: negotiating with the person who is not the decision-maker, at least for some critical part of the decision process.

Rick "always identify the decision-maker" Denney

+1

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:23 am I go into shops to browse often enough (until March, that is) that I don't feel guilty for doing so. Joe's advice applies to planners, but often my decision to buy is made when a complex set of conditions come together all at once. I call that a unique buying opportunity.

• Do I want the item?

• Does it have a good story?

• Does it fulfill the requirements I have constructed? (Not all of these are rational, but they are all still requirements.)

• Does it speak to me?

• Do I have the money?

Here's the thing: The item that speaks to me, fulfills my requirements, has a good story, and that I want costs what it costs. If I go in with a budget first, I'll never find anything that satesfies those other needs. But if all those things are true, then I start a conversation with the seller. "What can we work out?" And we either work something out or we don't. The key is honest communication on both sides.

But when I'm just browsing, I tell the salesperson, "I'm just browsing and I appreciate your showing me things. But should an actual customer need attention, please abandon me immediately and without concern." Some of the things I buy just have to be examined in person before I can even know if I'm interested, and often enough I've run across something that I walked out with, that I had not planned to buy when I walked in. Some shop salespeople hear me say that and then ignore me so that they can go prop up a wall at the back of the otherwise empty shop. My browsing usually comes to an end pretty quickly there.

Example: I've looked at a LOT of tubas over the years at Dillon's, which I think is one of the great stores and which I think has earned our custom in many ways. But all those factors have never aligned, until this year. Matt Walters knows that over those years I've bought several instruments from Baltimore Brass (also a great store), but he never let it bother him. "I know that someday you'll be hooked by something we have."

But it's true that I'm in charge of my own finances, too. When I'm working a deal, I'm the decision-maker. That's the issue Joe is raising: negotiating with the person who is not the decision-maker, at least for some critical part of the decision process.

Rick "always identify the decision-maker" Denney

I have means, and I have poor impulse control. If I come across something I like, I'm likely to buy it, regardless of need. So I control myself in the looking process. Meaning I will not drive a car, ride a motorcycle, play an instrument, or handle a firearm that I am not prepared to buy if it feels right.That way, I avoid buyer's remorse.

I got one retailer really mad at me....first I ordered something, it arrived in a VERY damaged box, and I sent it back unopened, not wanting to have to hassle with probable repairs. Then I got an instrument on trial, tried it, found it did not work for me but praised its quality publicly, and sent it back. Since then they have made it clear they don't want to do business with me. That's ok because I think my tuba days are over anyway. If I want something from that retailer, I'll wait for a used one to show up somewhere.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:38 pmThat's ok because I think my tuba days are over anyway.

I’m sorry to hear that @Mary Ann. I hope you are alright.

Thanks. Hanging in there after 15 years of progressively worse things going wrong and finding Standard of Care either does nothing or harms. So I have ventured into extremely esoteric approaches and it has at least slowed the decline. Meanwhile I had a really nice time yesterday eating outside socially distanced with a friend, and life could be worse. I can't lift but I can still blow

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:23 am I go into shops to browse often enough (until March, that is) that I don't feel guilty for doing so. Joe's advice applies to planners, but often my decision to buy is made when a complex set of conditions come together all at once. I call that a unique buying opportunity.

• Do I want the item?

• Does it have a good story?

• Does it fulfill the requirements I have constructed? (Not all of these are rational, but they are all still requirements.)

• Does it speak to me?

• Do I have the money?

Here's the thing: The item that speaks to me, fulfills my requirements, has a good story, and that I want costs what it costs. If I go in with a budget first, I'll never find anything that satesfies those other needs. But if all those things are true, then I start a conversation with the seller. "What can we work out?" And we either work something out or we don't. The key is honest communication on both sides.

But when I'm just browsing, I tell the salesperson, "I'm just browsing and I appreciate your showing me things. But should an actual customer need attention, please abandon me immediately and without concern." Some of the things I buy just have to be examined in person before I can even know if I'm interested, and often enough I've run across something that I walked out with, that I had not planned to buy when I walked in. Some shop salespeople hear me say that and then ignore me so that they can go prop up a wall at the back of the otherwise empty shop. My browsing usually comes to an end pretty quickly there.

Example: I've looked at a LOT of tubas over the years at Dillon's, which I think is one of the great stores and which I think has earned our custom in many ways. But all those factors have never aligned, until this year. Matt Walters knows that over those years I've bought several instruments from Baltimore Brass (also a great store), but he never let it bother him. "I know that someday you'll be hooked by something we have."

But it's true that I'm in charge of my own finances, too. When I'm working a deal, I'm the decision-maker. That's the issue Joe is raising: negotiating with the person who is not the decision-maker, at least for some critical part of the decision process.

Rick "always identify the decision-maker" Denney

I went into a store near where I live because they are the only place anywhere close to me that actually has tubas to look at. I went back a few times over the next month and a half to play them (I was too poor to actually buy them), but I did take some of my other instruments in to have work done on them. Then COVID hit. A few months after that, I started working there.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:23 am Thanks. Hanging in there after 15 years of progressively worse things going wrong and finding Standard of Care either does nothing or harms. So I have ventured into extremely esoteric approaches and it has at least slowed the decline. Meanwhile I had a really nice time yesterday eating outside socially distanced with a friend, and life could be worse. I can't lift but I can still blow

Sounds like you would benefit from one of these...?... It will hold your tuba in playing position. There are sold under the name Randall May or sometimes Yamaha. Super high quality.

The Big Ben wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:38 am If the "customer" goes to the brick and mortar, spends three-four hours of the sales staff's time on multiple visits, mooches free advice and puts fingerprints all over a horn and then buys it mail order then brings it to the original brick and mortar dealer for warrantee service, the customer is not right.

Well, I did that a couple years ago....but it was a slightly different scenario. (Not a musical instrument but needed to be "handled" to see if it was a "fit.") I went to the brick and mortar, decided on something, didn't waste incredible amounts of the sales people's time, and bought FROM THAT STORE online because it was $80 cheaper. When I went to pick it up, they made me wait an inordinately long time for some paper work, were quite rude in person, and the result is....I won't buy there again. If they don't want people buying online they should not offer the service. It wasn't like I purchased it somewhere else after examining it at their store and then took it there for warranty work.

Poor Mary Ann on everyone’s Shirt list...

We had a few regular tire kickers at the bike shop who would try to beat us up on price, and then when we wouldn't budge they'd go 20 miles down the road and get it for less. This wouldn't have been so bad if the interaction was short. Something like:

• Walks in.

• Asks to test ride a bike.

• Asks if we're flexible on the price.

• Leaves.

But that's never how those folks did it. It was always a long, long, time wasting conversation. Endless technical questions. Adjustments to the bike, or bikes. They brought their own saddle and pedals. And on and on and on and....

Then, when they couldn't get it for a price close to cost, they'd call some other dealer who didn't have what they wanted in stock and ask them to special order it.

Two or three months later they'd show up again with a warranty claim. We had no obligation to actually service those claims, so we'd tell them something like "We'll look at it and get the replacement parts ordered. $50. Then you're paying our regular labor rates when we put them on." Sometimes they'd bite and we'd make a few bucks, though it was never enough to offset the time wasted on the front end. Mostly, they'd just gripe about the money and how the shop where they bought it was too far away, and then leave in a huff. Then they'd be back in a year or so to do it all over again.

On the flip side of that, if someone who'd recently moved to the area came in with a bike they bought elsewhere, we'd bend over backwards to handle those claims. And for the most part they'd become a customer for life.