TubaForum.net

I recently saw a video on embouchure for trumpet. It spoke about stretching the lips to go up in pitch. Will this work for a tuba mouthpiece? I struggle to get above Bb on top of the bass cleft staff.


Hey, I am short too,
CCC

I think you'll find this video helpful:



It's not good to stretch your embouchre to hit high notes because you'll have less control of them as a result and less lip flexibility at the end of the road.
I would honestly suggest doing exercises where you free-buzz higher pitches by pinching together the part of your embouchre that would be inside your mouthpiece normally so as to train yourself to have a smaller aperture through which air can escape.
This combined with the mouth cavity size as outlined in the video, and regular, slow exercise where you progressively work your range up (making sure not to press!) should work wonders for your range without sacrificing any lip flexibilities.

This is just what worked for me, so YMMV, but I hope it helps!

---

RJ

Charlie C Chowder wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:55 am I recently saw a video on embouchure for trumpet. It spoke about stretching the lips to go up in pitch. Will this work for a tuba mouthpiece? I struggle to get above Bb on top of the bass cleft staff.


Hey, I am short too,
CCC

Trumpet players will say anything. That's bad advice, even for a trumpet player.

On trombone, and I assume it's the same on tuba, you solidify the corners and flex the main lip muscles. This generally does the opposite of "stretching". It kind of compresses the lips together so that they firm up around the aperture. When I play low notes on tuba, it's kind of like just flapping lips, but the upper range seems to actually use an embouchure more like a trombone, but larger. I'm not sure if tubers can do this, but boners get a lot of mileage from just buzzing the lips. You can't do this a lot, but it does help the upper range.

Anyway, if you get parts above the staff, just hand it to a euph or bone player. Tuba really doesn't sound good up there unless your name is Pilafian.

No one wants to hear that anyway.

That is such bad teaching....it doesn't work, never worked, and the people who taught that had no idea how to actually play the trumpet, although they could probably do ok on lower parts.

I wish I had references to Roger Lewis's posts on the old forum....it is LIP POSITION. Curl out for low (kissy face,) curl in for high (inverted kissy face; -- and those are "mild" exaggerations to get the point across.) You find a "neutral midrange position where your lips are more or less just touching" and take it from there, experimenting. No straining, no squeezing. It is easy; if it is NOT easy, you have not figured out how to do it yet, and it is just downright sad that no teacher has taught you that. Those guys who play hour after hour are not using huge effort with their embouchures.

There IS a "trumpet system" called the Balanced Embouchure that teaches this extremely well; those people who play on tiny little cups usually have no idea what they do to change range. It's more obvious on larger cups, and there are even videos out there with transparent cups in which you can see what is going on.

When I first started paying tuba I mostly taught myself; as far as embouchure goes I went by trial and error. I knew basics like don’t puff your cheeks, keep your corners firm, etc. But I didn’t give a lot of thought to what was going on inside the mouthpiece. I simply did what worked best. This continued into college. I had heard a horror story from a friend (clarinet player) at another college whose teacher said his embouchure was all wrong and made him start over from scratch. So I approached my private teacher about my embouchure. He said “you sound great! Why worry about it?”. And he added “I have a simple rule when it comes to embouchure, playing position, and things like that. My rule is ‘if it sounds good, it is good.’”. Many years later I attended the Army Band Tuba-Euphonium conference in DC. In the vendor area was a display of custom made mouthpieces. I wish I could remember the name of the guy or the company. But he invited me to play on a clear plastic mouthpiece he had (I think he called it a “visualizer”) so he could look at my embouchure and determine which of his mouthpieces would be best for me. When I started playing his eyes bulged out and his jaw dropped. He said “I can’t believe it! I just can’t believe it!”. He started calling over other people (friends?) and shouted “look at this!” Then there were other comments like “How can he even make a sound like that? I’ve never seen anything like this before! How can he sound so good playing like THAT?” And so forth. By then I was feeling like a circus sideshow act, so I quit playing and walked away. He never did tell me what he thought I was doing wrong, and I didn’t really want to become the subject of more ridicule. It did make me feel bad and I wanted to quit then and there. And I did in fact quit tuba but several years later. But I was wrong to do so. I had forgotten my teacher’s simple rule “if it sounds good, it IS good.” I’m pretty sure the subtext of his rule, if I interpret it correctly, is that there is no one size fits all embouchure, playing position, etc. that works perfectly for everybody. YOU have to do what works best for YOU.

Every rule regarding musical performance technique sports exceptions - including exceptions who are top-level players and soloists.

Most guidelines are valid, and a very few guidelines can probably be classified as dubious or deserving of review or skepticism.

As with everything else, it's up to the individual to make their own decisions regarding following or diverging from truisms and instruction, just as it is up to the individual to evaluate the quality of their technical production and the quality of their art.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:22 am That is such bad teaching....it doesn't work, never worked, and the people who taught that had no idea how to actually play the trumpet, although they could probably do ok on lower parts.

I wish I had references to Roger Lewis's posts on the old forum....it is LIP POSITION. Curl out for low (kissy face,) curl in for high (inverted kissy face; -- and those are "mild" exaggerations to get the point across.) You find a "neutral midrange position where your lips are more or less just touching" and take it from there, experimenting. No straining, no squeezing. It is easy; if it is NOT easy, you have not figured out how to do it yet, and it is just downright sad that no teacher has taught you that. Those guys who play hour after hour are not using huge effort with their embouchures.

There IS a "trumpet system" called the Balanced Embouchure that teaches this extremely well; those people who play on tiny little cups usually have no idea what they do to change range. It's more obvious on larger cups, and there are even videos out there with transparent cups in which you can see what is going on.

I've heard some stuff similar to this when I was watching videos for trumpet embouchre. (I double)
I remember the guy on the video had a specific rule to not play on the "red" of your lips, or, the wet part that constitutes the very inside of your mouth.
So far that's worked for me on trumpet; even though it's easier to get the lowest notes out when you roll out a little, never playing "in the red" makes the "money register" nice and solid.

Personally, I always roll out when I play in the low range on my tuba (below A1) but I haven't really specifically curled in when playing high, I've just kinda jammed my lips together, so I might start practicing with this in mind and see where it gets me.
Makes sense since horn players always play high in the partials and I've noticed they roll in like double reed players...

Ultimately though, you ask 10 trumpet players how to play anything and they'll give you 30 opinions.

That being said, I'd put my two cents behind the roll-in, roll-out thing, (though, again, I haven't necessarily tried the roll-in part on tuba) but with the addition of I think changes in embouchre should happen gradually rather than having a "high range," "mid," "low range" embouchre.
I think it's like classical voice; they always make sure that when they cross over their big "break" between their chest and head voice, that they smooth it over instead of hitting it like a yodeler, so, similarly, us brass players need to focus on smoothly traversing all of our "breaks." (between the partials)

---
RJ

The best exercises I've found to burn the roll-out, roll-in embouchure into muscle memory are still these.

The one additional factor needed to hit the high notes correctly is 'fast air'. I keep forgetting that one.

I've seen a few tuba players with a "smile" embouchure, and a couple with a real Joker-esque smile embouchure. I'm usually less-than-impressed with their sound. I see one player on FB who is otherwise a really fine player, but he looks like the cartoon version of The Joker when he plays in the mid and high ranges. He has great facility, but the tone is lacking (very thin). I wouldn't recommend stretching your muscles out unnaturally to make a thin flat opening that is tough to control and tough to make sound good. Stick with making a smaller, rounder opening for maximum tone and resonance. Building the high range is like weight lifting: Using proper form, push your limits gradually and repeatedly, have a rest period, repeat frequently. And be patient: you will start to see your gains before too long.

This player with the Joker embouchure also played a popular solo in such a way that others considered it to be unmusical, but the player arrogantly insisted he played it exactly how he wanted it to be. I'm not sure that it is related at all to his embouchure, but maybe his taste for style comes from the same place as does his taste for embouchures. Unless your dental work absolutely requires it, don't be a Joker.

Hey! I am already a Clown. Damn proud of it too, but I do want a beautiful full sound.

CCC

Charlie C Chowder wrote: ↑Tue Apr 05, 2022 8:49 am Hey! I am already a Clown. Damn proud of it too, but I do want a beautiful full sound.

CCC

Show ‘em what you’re made of, Clarabell!
Doc (no longer wondering what the “C” in Charlie “C” Chowder represents )

I remember when Kenny G was new and getting popular. All my sax students wanted to play out of the side of their mouths.