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bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:23 pm Re: Fennel and fast tempos...

I never met the man, but know people who've played under him. My memory from their stories is that you'd better know your stuff, and you would catch a ration and a half of Shirt if you didn't.

Which has always led me to believe, fast tempos require playing fast things cleanly and accurately. If you can play it cleanly fast, you can play the slower stuff cleanly too.

Any band performance worth a damn is "clean" and "tight" more than a thing else.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:47 pm Well, perhaps the stories I heard were not representative, but that's all I know and heard... Not a nice guy. But also, when does "nice guy" translate to conductor of the best of the best wind ensembles?

For that matter, I've heard of and experienced personally plenty of brusque, rude, or worse moments with some common name tuba heros. Rolls off my back, but still remember it.

DonO. wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:55 pm One of my pet peeves is inappropriate, too-fast tempi. Conductors and performers both can be guilty. When I was in high school I had several private lessons with Phillip Catelinet, who was teaching at Carnegie-Mellon University
in Pittsburgh at the time. Now, I know he is somewhat controversial, his playing was not universally admired, but all of that aside, he did do the premier performance of the Vaughn Williams Concerto, and worked with Vaughn Williams personally. So if anyone on earth knew how fast it was supposed to go, it would be him. I was trying to play the Concerto, at that age, on a 3 valve BBb. I know, chutzpah, right? But one of the things I clearly remember him saying was that I was trying to take the first and third movements too fast, and he bemoaned the fact that most modern players took those movements too fast also. Including the recordings students were modeling. He would make a face and say “That’s not how V.W. wanted it!”.

I heard a piano player playing “The Maple Leaf Rag” on TV recently and it was performed so fast that the melodic lines blurred and the whole piece no longer made any musical sense. It was just showing off. I thought “This is a perfect example example of ‘just because it can be done doesn’t mean it should be done’”

I appreciate the work-around on the Holst Second Suite, but with all due respect it would not be necessary if the conductor took it at the intended speed. I have played the Second Suite. It was a long time ago but as I recall I played that passage as written.

To all musical performers and conductors, I would say “Lighten up folks, it’s not a race!”. And when preparing a piece, if you are using recordings as your model, listen to as many versions as you are able. Note any tempo differences between the versions. And try to get into the composer’s head. Note how he or she used the same tempo markings in other pieces. Take into account stylistic considerations. What is the composer trying to get across?

I suppose it’s close to being a musical heretic to say a conductor with the status of Frederick Fennell is wrong. But if a piece of music is marked Allegro moderato and he takes it Molto Allegro, then I’m sorry. Wrong is exactly what he was.

bloke wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:08 pm When I hear - specifically - youtube recordings of brass quintet music being played "as fast as physically possible" (often: sounding comical) I immediate suspect that it's a quintet consisting of graduate students. ie. "This is absolutely as fast as we can play this, so this must - then - be the appropriate tempo."

The Holst 4th movement doesn't sound "comical" or "bad" when played quite fast, which is probably why (in addition to it being the final movement) so many directors/conductors bump up the tempo on that movement. That having been said, the Dargason (a centuries-old English country tune) does sound better at the appropriate tempo.

' nuff said.

DonO. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:34 am The first movement of the VW is marked Allegro moderato, quarter note =96. That is clear enough, but the problem is that it’s routinely ignored and done much faster than that. Catelinet said the VW intended the first movement to be reminiscent of a dignified British brass band march. Think the tempo of Holst First Suite in Eb third movement. He felt that most players get the slow second movement pretty well, that’s not usually a problem. We only had several lessons and I never worked on the third movement too much. We did talk about it though and he thought the marked tempo of quarter note=150 was pushing it a bit. I have no idea whether the marked tempi are Vaughn
william’s or added by an editor. My encounter with the man was relatively brief and a long time ago but that’s how I remember it. His biggest issue was with how the first movement is performed. I considered studying further with him but he clued me in that he was retiring soon and moving back to England. Hope these little scraps are somewhat helpful.

Another thought: it seems to me that British idea of “march tempo” is different from the American idea. The British seem to like a slower march (90-96) and Americans prefer things a bit faster (120 or so).

DonO. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:06 am Out of curiosity I wanted to see what I could find on the Interwebs. I was very surprised to find out there’s a web site dedicated to Catelinet (philipcatelinet.com). On the web site is a copy of an article he wrote called “The Truth About the Vaughn Williams Tuba Concerto”. Fascinating read!

DonO. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:53 am I think that, because those “compromise” sessions were at RVW’s residence, with no one present except RVW, his wife, and Catelinet, Catelinet’s recollections are worthy of study, even if they don’t tell the whole story. According to the article I referenced, VW most emphatically did not want any input on changing pitches, but he was willing to compromise on tempo, phrasing, articulation, and such. There were some notes that were cut from one of the cadenzas in the original version because Catelinet didn’t think he could pull them off. I have heard that in some editions those cuts were put back in? I just don’t know.

I apologize for derailing this discussion from bloke’s very useful suggestion about the Holst 2nd Suite. I only brought up the VW in the first place because part of the original discussion was about inappropriately fast tempi, and that’s the piece that immediately popped into my head as a perfect example.

Doc wrote: ↑Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:52 am
Amen! One of my peeves for years is American band directors playing British (and German) marches with American style and American tempos (sometimes aggressive tempos even for American marches). Is it that hard to do a little research, a little listening, understand style, and actually serve the music? Geez!