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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

-Robert A. Heinlein

I can't tell you how many toobists I've met who're convinced that the way to learn to play the instrument is by repeatedly playing orchestral excerpts. IMHO, they've got it exactly backwards: learn to play the instrument (fundamentals, mindful practice, etc) and then excerpts are a breeze.

Being able to hum excerpts...or any musical tunes - (without the aid of a piece of machinery) prior to ever playing them - defines learning to play them - with a piece of machinery - as even more of a "breeze".

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:42 am I can't tell you how many toobists I've met who're convinced that the way to learn to play the instrument is by repeatedly playing orchestral excerpts. IMHO, they've got it exactly backwards: learn to play the instrument (fundamentals, mindful practice, etc) and then excerpts are a breeze.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:50 am Being able to hum excerpts...or any musical tunes - (without the aid of a piece of machinery) prior to ever playing them - defines learning to play them

Singing, humming, whistling etc. while reading a part without the aid of machinery is the key to pitch training and recognition. I now understand the value of being able to sing off a written page. Much easier said than done for many of us and worthy of practice. Without this, the machinery just gets you in the ballpark.

"If you can sing it, you can buzz it. If you can buzz it, you can play it." H.A. Vandercook et. al.

"I sing the notes in my head while playing. It doesn't matter how my lips feel or I feel." Arnold Jacobs

"Get the sound you want in your head first, then play it." Adolph Herseth

Oddly - since the plandemic, most of my gig-age is "orchestral", but - in the past - "playing stuff without pieces of paper in front of my face" represented the majority of it...

thus: the quote in the original post, and - hopefully - those other jobs come back, as they are so much more fun.

bloke "Being able to brag about a performance of Mahler II or V (after the fact) is one type of thing, but sitting down with a handful of others, and just playing 'a whole bunch of songs' (during the fact) is quite a bit more of a thing - in reality."

That's unthinkable, Joe!

I have never understood players who think the orchestra is the end of the musical road. It is just one path of many. It is especially bad when the really pretentious ones who dedicate their lives to looking, talking, and acting like an orchestral player actually suck hard at BEING an orchestral player because they are too caught up in recordings and excerpts to remember how bad their time and pitch are.

No sympathy. Let them continue to make the tuba world seem more competitive than it actually is. And let them play the tuba for most of their life while never bothering to play some of the most enjoyable music there is because it comes out of a beer-stained spiral notebook with a bunch of chord changes scrawled in Bic ballpoint…

To add on to this, so many people are good at auditioning on the excerpts but can’t play in the ensemble.

I’ve heard of at least 1 recent audition where a trial was offered and a no hire audition happened. Didn’t Boston do 3 auditions (before my time)? The guy who won it was a Disney World musician who played in multiple different styles to make a living, and I suspect the one he played in the least was orchestra. Hearing recordings of the ensemble and him as a soloist shows how good of a musician he is.

sort-of related:

Demoting myself to a B-flat player (from a highfalutin sea-tubuh-fer-kolig type of guy), i’ve been rehearsing with a non-pretentious and welcoming community band – to build my B-flat reading skills up from where they were - when I stopped playing so much of it in the 12th grade.

I’m having to remind myself that I’m no longer a soloist, I don’t have to rely on myself alone to balance with a 50-piece ensemble. and I’m having a function more like a member of a double bass section in an orchestra - oh: except usually in flat keys.

‘ good to do different things, rather than always the same things.

This seems only natural, as Phillips (correct?) was never really a hire of any "full-time" orchestras (only well: sort-of one of which - in reality - existed during Mr. Bell's and Mr. Phillips' playing careers).
I guess Mr. Bell was a "full-time" hire of the Sousa band, but - well - it eventually went kaput.

bloke "There really is no such thing as a 'forever' gig...no matter what the ensemble/organization/underwriter."

YorkNumber3 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:46 am Speaking of Harvey Phillips…

His students seem to often report his encouraging them to seek a diverse career. His teacher, Bill Bell, played everything under the sun, too.

What is it that has changed that triggered the narrowing of the tuba field? Was it the desire for respect from the classical world? The higher education machine of tenure seeking (keeping kids in the studio, not out playin’ that devil music) resulting in blinders accidentally/intentionally donned by teachers and students?

Probably both and more…

I can do nearly all of those things.

Poorly.

I totally disagree with the "if you can sing it you can buzz it." Not if you don't have the technique to buzz it. Sheesh. When I was younger I could sing notes (that I can't sing now because my voice has lowered with age by about a fourth) WAY higher than I ever could buzz. I've had two different teachers who "challenged" me to sing the music; one was my violin teacher who assumed I had never even heard of solfege, and the other was a horn teacher. Both shut RIGHT UP after I sang the music to them. Singing does not equal brass technique. I can STILL sing a concert high C, two octaves above concert middle C. I cannot come close to buzzing that pitch.

YorkNumber3 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:46 am What is it that has changed that triggered the narrowing of the tuba field?

I blame short-sighted academics (and there's plenty of 'em) who teach only what was taught to them. Performance degrees at the local kollidge include excerpts and solo literature. Almost no emphasis on quintet playing or (God forbid!) reading simple chord changes so that graduates might be able to scuffle through a casual dixie gig; certainly more likely forms of employment than being asked to sit in the back row of an orchestra blasting excerpts.

re: Mr. Bell

I'm thinking that - whether orchestras other than Philadelphia - during that time period - were considered "full time", they weren't enough money on which to live comfortably...thus: all of the radio/recording/summer concerts/teaching/etc., etc. that Mr. Bell also engaged in while in New York.

I'm also thinking that (beginning in the 1970's or so) that's why so many of the "old guys" held on for so long - in various big-city orchestras...because their gigs were FINALLY (after all those years) paying some decent dough.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:12 am I totally disagree with the "if you can sing it you can buzz it." I can STILL sing a concert high C, two octaves above concert middle C. I cannot come close to buzzing that pitch.

Totally, I get that, but in my mind that whole deal makes more sense regarding pitch itself irrespective of octaves and range capability. Having that pitch correct in your head like when coming in cold with no reference, totally exposed, and landing on the correct partial. I don't know if that is what is meant, but that's how I interpret it.

I realize this is a generational thing, but I went to a band rehearsal tonight trying to re-teach myself how to play B-flat tuba while reading music, a couple of the marches were not in the folder I was handed, and I played them anyway.
Another thing that they rehearsed was that Armed Forces medley that everyone plays, and that was also not in the folder but I played it anyway.
After playing stuff like that dozens and dozens of times - over the years, it just seems to me that that’s enough times to learn how simple stuff like that - well… - “goes”.
People that act like that is some sort of amazing trick… I guess I kind of feel sorry for them, but they treat me like I’m a freak because I’m doing something that really isn’t hard.
That having been said, I suppose it’s another skill other that “playing changes“. It’s probably a less sophisticated skill…simply: remembering music.

They can all sing the Star-Spangled Banner and recite the Pledge of Allegiance, sing the doxology. and mumble through their church’s creed - as well as a bunch of psalms, but think it’s weird that some people can remember how written music goes.
Does anyone even try to remember, or memorize or learn composed music anymore?