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I ran across this in my Youtube feed. They are expanding the Hagen line. Looks interesting.

The new Miraphone 3/4 BBb tuba Hagen 494

https://youtu.be/Sn4k1FSi4ZE

Specs from https://www.miraphone.de/bbb-tuba-494-yellow-brass.html

Product Name BBb tuba
SKU 170494A07000
Model-number model 494 Hagen
Tuning B♭
Intonation 443 Hz
Model 494
Number of valves 4 valves
Size 3/4
Material in body yellow brass
Finish lacquered
Bell diameter 430 mm (16,9 inch)
Material valve section nickel silver trimmings
Lever system spiral spring system
Rod Miraphone minibal rod
Valve system rotary valves
Bore of valve section 18,8 mm (0,740 inch)
Lyre holder with lyre holder
Total weight instrument 9,0 kg / 19,8 lb

I just invested (per one of the repair forum threads) serious time "bringing back" a couple of old model 84 B-flats.
( viewtopic.php?t=2378&start=60 )

They offer a certain type of sound, and (just as with the C versions) ask for the 6th partial fingerings to bring the open and 2nd-valve 5th partial pitches up.

I could imagine introducing a new 3/4 size model that might (??) offer a less "throaty" type of sonority, and with more (with the bugle-taper computer programs available today) compromises (to the good) in intonation tendencies...ie. I could imagine a less-flat fifth partial while allowing the sixth partial to creep upwards (etc.)

Finally...
There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas, as there are still many who don't wish to learn second or third sets of fingerings.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:23 am I just invested (per one of the repair forum threads) serious time "bringing back" a couple of old model 84 B-flats.
( viewtopic.php?t=2378&start=60 )

They offer a certain type of sound, and (just as with the C versions) ask for the 6th partial fingerings to bring the open and 2nd-valve 5th partial pitches up.

I could imagine introducing a new 3/4 size model that might (??) offer a less "throaty" type of sonority, and with more (with the bugle-taper computer programs available today) compromises (to the good) in intonation tendencies...ie. I could imagine a less-flat fifth partial while allowing the sixth partial to creep upwards (etc.)

Finally...
There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas, as there are still many who don't wish to learn second or third sets of fingerings.

I'm a fan of the 282 (I like it better than the 184). I've wanted to try a MW 2011RA for a long time, but there aren't any to test (seems to be much more popular in Europe). This will likely be much easier to find and test. Is this Miraphone's equivalent to the 2011RA? Or simply their most modern/advanced 3/4 BBb? I wonder if they'll have one at San Antonio in July?

The original 2011 was a replica (other than - possibly...?? - not having the courage to market a 4/4-size B-flat tuba with a "French"-style 5/8" bore) of the Mahillon. It seems as though (as "top-action" gets an auto-stamp of disapproval, these days) they've repurposed that bell-and-bows in several ways, and I'm not sure with how much marketing success.

I've got a genuine 4-valve Mahillon, but - after approaching a certain stage in its restoration - had to set it aside. I WILL get back to it (probably this year). I'll also (nearly certainly) offer it for sale, once completely restored. Mr. Johnson, I'm somewhat convinced, was able to float around on that instrument with such ease via (other than his own developed abilities) the 5/8" bore...which is the same bore size as utilized on those early 20th century (very small bore size) Conn and King 3/4 E-flat tubas.

The 184 is actually spot-on tuning for me, with a push for the 5th-partial C and 1-2 for the D. I have never owned a tuba that required less of that sort of correction. I’m not sure I’d take a sharp higher partial in return for a less-flat fifth—it’s easy to correct the flat fifth but not so easy to pull a high F or G.

The sound is what I would call “contained” instead of “out there”. But that is exactly what I want in certain situations.

I’m playing a church gig with the quintet on Sunday. Mostly lower stuff, and I’m blending more with organ than trombone. I’ll bring the Eastman.

I have a second gig coming up that is a joint thing with another quintet. Now, I have to blend with another tuba player, playing high stuff (some above the staff) because he prefers to play low stuff. I’ll bring the F tuba for that—it will blend better but provide a different voice. And above the staff I’m much more secure on F. (And it’s Gabrieli and I know the part with F fingerings).

But for many quintet gigs, I’m playing some stuff high, some low, some from a bass trombone part, some from a tuba part, some soft, very little loud. The 184 lives in that space quite comfortably.

Rick “still playing with mouthpieces, but needing a smallish shank” Denney

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:59 am The original 2011 was a replica (other than - possibly...?? - not having the courage to market a 4/4-size B-flat tuba with a "French"-style 5/8" bore) of the Mahillon. It seems as though (as "top-action" gets an auto-stamp of disapproval, these days) they've repurposed that bell-and-bows in several ways, and I'm not sure with how much marketing success.

I've got a genuine 4-valve Mahillon, but - after approaching a certain stage in its restoration - had to set it aside. I WILL get back to it (probably this year). I'll also (nearly certainly) offer it for sale, once completely restored. Mr. Johnson, I'm somewhat convinced, was able to float around on that instrument with such ease via (other than his own developed abilities) the 5/8" bore...which is the same bore size as utilized on those early 20th century (very small bore size) Conn and King 3/4 E-flat tubas.

I can't find the top action 2011 to test either (and I'm not interested AT ALL in the front action piston version). If the Mahillon is ready about the same time I need to travel to western TN again, I would be pleased to engage in a test!

I really enjoyed my Conn 10J, even though it likely isn't nearly the player these other 3/4BBb tubas are. I have an abundance of tubas, but a fella can dream about things he'd like to have, and a 3/4 BBb is one of those things.

Doc (who does not own an "auto-stamp of disapproval" for top action tubas)

10J's are worthy of praise, and were completely based on an (econo line) Pan American model.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:19 am 10J's are worthy of praise, and were completely based on an (econo line) Pan American model.

There was a brief time in my career where I actually got a lunch hour. I'd come home every day and play along with some tunes for a half an hour (Jim Cullum, John Sheridan, Dukes, Sinatra, etc), grab a quick bite, then go back to work.

It occurs to me that a lot of things were Shirt in my personal life at the time, but coming home and playing the 10J was always a bright spot in my day (sometimes the only highlight of the day), possibly explaining some of my affection (perhaps undue or exaggerated) for that model.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:23 am There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas...

...because much of the tuba-playing population is getting older.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:45 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:23 am There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas...

...because much of the tuba-playing population is getting older.

I'm going to play whatever tubas I want/can until I can't anymore. If it ever comes down to me needing an old man tuba, a lightweight 3/4 BBb tops the list.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:45 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:23 am There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas...

...because much of the tuba-playing population is getting older.

...and quite a few people don't understand that any tuba with four valves (regardless of overall size) is probably going to weigh at least 23 pounds, and insisting on carrying it in is bag from the car is going to add a minimum of another 8 pounds.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:33 am

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:45 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:23 am There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas...

...because much of the tuba-playing population is getting older.

...and quite a few people don't understand that any tuba with four valves (regardless of overall size) is probably going to weigh at least 23 pounds, and insisting on carrying it in is bag from the car is going to add a minimum of another 8 pounds.

My compadre Glenn (you've spoken with him) unloads his GDR pre-PT 3 and a dolly from his truck, bungees the case to the dolly and rolls out. He says he's too old to pack that Shirt around too much - needs to save his energy for playing tuba and drinking beer. I find no fault with that logic. A slightly larger tuba poses no real issue in that transportation setup (as long as you can load/unload the tuba from the truck).

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:33 am

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:45 am

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:23 am There's a market for nice-playing 3/4-size tubas...

...because much of the tuba-playing population is getting older.

...and quite a few people don't understand that any tuba with four valves (regardless of overall size) is probably going to weigh at least 23 pounds, and insisting on carrying it in is bag from the car is going to add a minimum of another 8 pounds.

The advantage one can see with a smaller horn is that it’s likely easier to manipulate and hold than a larger one. Like moving around a 30lbs kettlebell compared to a 2’x2’x2’ box of similar weight.

@Doc

To each his own...

Having played those instruments ("B&S Symphonie" expanding-bores version of a "piggy" C, yes?), it's much more effort to play those in tune for 2-1/2 hours than it is to haul a 4-pounds-heavier tuba in-and-out of a building.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:48 am @Doc

To each his own...

Having played those instruments ("B&S Symphonie" expanding-bores version of a "piggy" C, yes?), it's much more effort to play those in tune for 2-1/2 hours than it is to haul a 4-pounds-heavier tuba in-and-out of a building.

Hence his quest for adjusting his instrument or acquiring a different instrument.

Just thinking about it... When hand-trucking a tuba, 4lbs extra don't amount to nuttin. And if it's that much of a problem holding an extra 4lbs in one's lap, the employment of a tuba stand is an option. That would require strapping the stand on the dolly also, but when rolling as such, the extra weight of a tuba stand aint' nuttin either.

Solutions abound - find what works.

I played a PT-3 in college, and while it was a little work to support an ensemble on its own, when in a section with a Cerveny kaiser BBb, the two tubas together worked quite well.

One of the few times I've actually played in a real "section."

I'm thinking that when I'm old, I'll have a hard time getting used to "part of a section," although that could absolutely be the ticket to easier/more enjoyable old-guy tuba band playing.

A long ways off for me... and I'm sharply in the opposite direction right now!

When sitting in a band section with some pretty good players, I need to keep my mouth shut.
Often, they play with a good time, with good pitch, and with good execution, but don’t do anything more than what is shown to do on the page, and with dynamic limitations between piano and forte. Though I might be able to make some nice suggestions, I’m not sure that it would occur to them that my suggestions are particularly helpful…and I’m not their teacher, and neither am I their music director.

' reminds me of the Meinl-Weston model 18 "Handy"...(more "body" and "oomph" than the 184 or 185 instruments - but all of the size ranges have been "inflated" have they not...??)

...and the youtube recording - released by Miraphone - sounds a lot like my Holton (York 4/4 shape/size) tuba.
Of course, I'm blowing my guts out (on some of these excerpts), but (as the old 4/4 is the new 3/4) here is my (apparently, now-a-days...??) 3/4 B-flat in an orchestral setting...and (you may disagree?) it seems to be well-suited (as would the Miraphone 494).
...This was my first-ever orchestral "outing" with this (then) newly-completed (Holton) instrument:
… I suspect the 494 would offer a similar type of sound…


I'm seeing many more socket-flange braces on the newer Miraphone models...
' can't say as I judge them for that in the least, though I'd like to see them about 1mm larger in diameter (more the diameter of King/Olds/Reynolds socket-flange braces).

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:27 pm I'm seeing many more socket-flange braces on the newer Miraphone models...
' can't say as I judge them for that in the least, though I'd like to see them about 1mm larger in diameter (more the diameter of King/Olds/Reynolds socket-flange braces).

What's the alternative?

jtm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:20 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:27 pm I'm seeing many more socket-flange braces on the newer Miraphone models...
' can't say as I judge them for that in the least, though I'd like to see them about 1mm larger in diameter (more the diameter of King/Olds/Reynolds socket-flange braces).

What's the alternative?

the signature fancy lathe-turned "hard-brazed" non-adjustable braces, found on the traditional Miraphone/Meinl-Weston/etc. rotary models.