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Since returning to tuba playing, I have tried to keep all four of my fingers on all four valve buttons all the time. But this is not easy for me, especially with my King. When I had a rotary horn, the buttons were closer together and better for my smallish hands than the pistons of the King. Well, then I saw a video of Carol Jantsch playing. She plays a Yamaha with pistons in the front, similar set up to mine. Not sure of the Yamaha model though. Anyway, I noticed that she keeps her fingers on valves 1-3, but her little finger stays pretty much beside her ring finger and only comes out when it’s needed. Far be it from me to criticize Carol Jantsch’s technique, but what do the rest of you think of that? If I played like that it would certainly be easier on my hand. I appreciate any input. I am trying to get a consistent and sensible playing position that becomes habitual. Thank you.

Additional- also noticed that if she is playing a passage that uses mostly 1 and 2, she brings her 3rd finger in and plays 2nd valve with both 2nd and 3rd fingers.

I guess I think about the same thing as I do about the tubas that they choose to use…’ works for them.

If one is going though an entire piece or passage above the forth valve C on a BBb tuba, yeah, give the pinky a rest.

Ring finger may take time off playing in F. But never in G, or Db.

I try not to play that high. I’m still trying to hit my Gs and As with consistency.

Not today. Maybe next week…

Technique serves product. Judge the product.

Whatever she’s doing is obviously right, at least for her.

Rick “who wishes he could produce 1% of that product, but pinky discipline ain’t the reason he can’t” Denney

She's not the only pro player who doesn't keep their fingers glued to the appropriate buttons/paddles. Check out Messrs. Fletcher, Baadsvik and Pilafian.

Here's another. Seems to be a lot of pros don't care what you do with your fingers when they're not actually pushing a specific button:

I can't say I've ever paid much attention to finger positioning. I think it's robotic and unnatural to keep your fingers resting on the buttons or paddles at ALL times.

But conversely, it doesn't need to be a Liberace-style flamboyance about using the valves.

Or some ham-handed smacking of buttons, as much as that's what people think we do back there.

Just be a human and play it without overthinking it. You'll know if you're doing it wrong.

.

DonO. wrote: ↑Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:37 pm Since returning to tuba playing, I have tried to keep all four of my fingers on all four valve buttons all the time. But this is not easy for me, especially with my King. When I had a rotary horn, the buttons were closer together and better for my smallish hands than the pistons of the King.

With most piston sets this is the case. Moreover, individual anthropometry will dictate adaptation to the fixed geometry of the orientation as well as past skills.

I had a tuba student that started piano lessons at a very young age. His father was a fine pianist and he was well on his way. He would sometimes do all kinds of stuff with his fingers based on what he thought was the best approach to the pattern. This was a kid nailing all of his scales with ease by 7th grade and placing himself into local youth orchestras and being in all-county/all-state bands.

I’ve also had students that needed a bit more of a disciplined approach to hand position so that they could have a more consistent outcome with technical playing.

Going back to anthropometry, there’s a lot of variation in hand sizes. The palm size and digit size can vary independently. Makes sense that people would do some interesting things to adapt as needed.

Interesting observations, all!

I think I am going to try following Carol’s example for a while, keeping the pinkie more relaxed and seeing if it makes a difference for me.

I wonder if that person is even aware of what they’re doing with their last finger on their right hand.
It might be interesting to figure out a way to determine that before following their example.

I suspect -

- she knows where her 4th valve is on the horn and in relation to her hand
- she's able to press it down when she needs to press it down
- she doesn't think about it in the slightest except when it needs pressing

In other words, I suspect this is not a conscious decision and just her body responding to what is being asked of it and the feedback it gets from playing.

kingrob76 wrote:I suspect -

- she knows where her 4th valve is on the horn and in relation to her hand
- she's able to press it down when she needs to press it down
- she doesn't think about it in the slightest except when it needs pressing

In other words, I suspect this is not a conscious decision and just her body responding to what is being asked of it and the feedback it gets from playing.

Yes. As I suggested, the more one thinks about finger placement, the less they are thinking about what’s important.

From left field: the great classically trained rock keyboardist Rick Wakeman stands at keyboards with his hands too high, too low, and arms too stretched out to meet any requirements of posture training a pianist would receive. He often holds his fingers straight with his knuckles locked. Yet his technique is blindingly fast and his musicianship superb.

Yes, there was probably a time in his early training when he did exercises to reinforce good technique habits. He says he still does them. But he obviously knows what is and isn’t important.

Rick “think about the product” Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:16 am
Rick “think about the product” Denney

THIS is why I get along WELL with THIS engineer...

...and why I troll some others.

"Process engineers" are the WORST!!

They can't comprehend that economies and people don't work the way "things" do.

This sounds like bass players minimizing finger stretches by closing finger spacing. You stretch out when needed and close in when possible. Staying stretched all the time is unnecessarily tiring, and it took years for me to realize how I was wasting effort.

For tubaists, those who put in enormous effort for the sake of total familiarity with a piece of music know when and where they need to relax and can afford to. Sometimes their hands are tired and sore. They know when to minimize effort and when not to.

Since this is leaning towards a typical festival of bloviation, I'll jump in the pool too! I may be barely able to play the tuba, and with long fingers anyway, but I can bloviate like anyone.

The degree to which Jantsch et al. are consciously aware of their hand position, is entirely immaterial, if it even means anything at all.

When we do anything practically at all, the central nervous system is fully involved. Maybe with the exception of muscular action involved in breathing, circulation and digestion. If we're talking about something like that, then sure, it's a point - Jantsch isn't conscious of her heart beating. Presumably. Most of the activity of playing the tuba, however, involves various parts of the brain, and any discussion of consciousness is accordingly going to be overly simplistic.

And in any case irrelevant. Jantsch has technique. Much of the point of technique, if not the whole point, is to establish a way of doing things that works, as a dependable reflex with less conscious monitoring. The question as I understand it, is really whether the common technique practice of holding each finger on its corresponding piston button, is really preferred, and the answer seems to be "no." Because Jantsch and other good tuba players apparently haven't made that part of their technique. Over simplified? Maybe, but there's nothing about it that has anything to do with how conscious they are of it.

I suspect the OP is referring to her hand position on the YFB 822 she plays. I would be curious if this transfers over to her Nirschl York.

Having studied long term with one of her long-term teachers, I would bet that hand position was mentioned. The YFB 822 valve angle is very weird for me, and when I have played one, I would notice that my fingers would not rest on the third and fourth valves.

well, you know, I play the violin and I certainly don't have my fingers directly over the notes I'm going to play. On violin, those notes are all over the fingerboard. I just have to know where they are.
Same with piano, 88 keys and ten fingers, yet look at what they can do.
I think you made yourself a rule for some reason that maybe isn't serving you very well. If I were your teacher, I'd say relax and just play the music.

I'm big enough to admit I have small hands. And, in particular, short fingers.

I watched some videos of Ms. Jantsch playing. Her hands don't look a lot different than mine.

So having said that - I do what she does. It isn't comfortable for me to keep my fingers on all the valves all the time, especially on pistons. I have to ever-so-slightly stretch my pinky, and it's not feasible 100% of the time. I never miss any notes, even during fast passages, despite having to move my pinky back into place before depressing the fourth valve. And having my pinky on the fourth valve all the time would be mid-to-high-range runs more difficult.

I think that this has been a great discussion! Very enlightening!

I have seen in this discussion several times some variation of “Don’t judge the process, judge the product”. This brought to mind something from many years ago that my undergraduate private teacher used to say: “Sounds good, IS good”. I had forgotten that, it this discussion brought it back to me.

I asked the original question not because I was judging the process. But if you think about it, every little thing we do as musicians is a series of habits that add up to a sum greater than the parts that go into it. I simply wondered if, having seen an undeniably fine player doing this, perhaps I could do something similar to give me a more relaxed right hand, which could lead to cleaner fast passages, and thus a better end product. So you see, I AM concerned with the product.

I am going to try the more relaxed hand approach, and see if it works for me.