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At concert band practice on Monday, a new lady was there and had a MackBrass 410 Miraclone 186. Pretty thing and a gold brass look to it. But my goodness that thing struck me as being BIG -- definitely bigger than the NStar that was sitting next to it. In a different band, we had a tuba stand-in last spring for a concert who had a "real" 186, and I didn't notice that it looked all that huge. Maybe this was just in contrast to what I'm now used to looking at, my 183 which resembles a really skinny and tall-belled 186. I was thinking of adding one of these (410) to my one-tuba stable, but, hmm, maybe not. I'd need a sherpa, and I'd have to find a tuba (hers?) to blow on first to see if I somehow can. I did manage the 184 years ago, but I suspect this would require more air. I happen to like CC tubas in addition to liking the Ebs.

The MiraClone 410 CC tuba is the BEST value tuba on the market. You have mentioned your small body size; thus, it might very well be too big for you. Play one. You'll be surprised how it plays in tune and produces a golden, burnished tone throughout the range.

Ace

Hi Mary Ann,

I have one of these. I've also owned a 188, a 186 and a 184CC. The bell is definitely bigger on the clone -- i.e., I'm guessing something Jin Bao already had the mandrels for, and not a faithful reproduction of the Miraphone 186 bell (new or old style). Definitely closer to the new style 186 but I still think it might be a hair larger, even.

I think this actually makes the sound a bit broader and less focused, which I enjoy for larger ensembles. It's a really great horn and the price for an in-tune, good-sounding CC tuba cannot be beat.

(full disclosure: mine is also for sale )

A 186 (up until the 1980's, when the arms race began) was considered to be a LARGE ORCHESTRA TUBA in the USA,

though central Europe - for decades - had been using kaiser B-flat instruments in their symphony orchestras...just not blasting into them as rigorously as is often done, today. (Their concert halls are more like cathedrals, than they are like oversized recording studios, and it just doesn't take all that much to put out a bunch of tuba sound in a space like that. Anyone in the USA who has played a tuba on some jobs in really high-reverberation spaces quickly realized - unless they were dolts - that less is more.)

Mary Ann,
Just thinking, here.
Since you like the clone idea, but you are a compact model yourself, have you considered the clone Arion/Piggy models? Shorter, with smaller bell, easy handling, available in both CC and BBb. Not as cheap as apthark's horn, but still not expensive. Dillon has one right now.
Tim

MN_TimTuba wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:39 pm Mary Ann,
Just thinking, here.
Since you like the clone idea, but you are a compact model yourself, have you considered the clone Arion/Piggy models? Shorter, with smaller bell, easy handling, available in both CC and BBb. Not as cheap as apthark's horn, but still not expensive. Dillon has one right now.
Tim

IMO,
These are built better (and thousands less than) a Czech-made Arion (if available brand-new), and with case and drop-shipping included in a price quote from a dealer (such as myself).

info/specs:
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... ng-bb-tuba

I'm thinking that Mark bought one of these, and subsequently sold an earlier-bought similar-looking one (made in another factory).



(I was in the "mood" to do a project - when I built my compact Holton, but - even though somewhat different - one of these would have served the same purpose, and - truth be told - plays marvelously well...and yes, I'm carnival-barking, but I try to exercise restraint and only carnival-bark things that are worthy of barking about.)

For comparison, here's a picture of a (Czech-made) Cerveny Arion, The JP and Arion are completely the same size/shape in every way.

I agree the Packer 379 is a great tuba. As in tune as 186 and sounds a lot like the "classic" 186 when it had a smaller bell.

Remember the DNA of the 186 started with Cerveny, so it's completely factual to say that this is essentially a 186 with a taller body and shorter bell. The valve section and routing is identical to both the 186 and the cerveny 686

Just to back up a little bit from Mark‘s claims, though they are appreciated… The bell throat is smaller than a 186 bell throat… but I would agree that it does not have a three-quarter type of sound.

But isn't it close to the classic miraphone with a 16 inch bell? Reminds me very much of that model

Twice back in the days before I got my 184, I had CCs shipped to me. One was a (haha) "3/4" Rudy, which sucked the air right out of my lungs. Also tried a Weril piston CC, shipped from Dillon's, and that was when I found out that front pistons are ergonomically impossible.

I also tried a 188 at WWBW while I had the 184, and found it requiring more air than I thought I had. I have no idea how one would feel now, or how similar it is to a 186.

I won't have a tuba shipped to me hoping it will work, because likely it won't, and shipping is both precarious and expensive. So -- only if I can play one locally and find out how it does with me, will I have one sent. I took a chance with my current 183 because it was an Eb, and a rotary, and very likely was going to work.

Ace wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:06 pm The MiraClone 410 CC tuba is the BEST value tuba on the market. You have mentioned your small body size; thus, it might very well be too big for you. Play one. You'll be surprised how it plays in tune and produces a golden, burnished tone throughout the range.

Ace

I will sort of sidle up to this lady and feel her out on whether she will let me try it; and yeah at 5'2" and 95 pounds sopping wet, I am not very big. Same size I was in high school and I know there are a LOT of people who wish they could say that, but it has its drawbacks. Pip-squeak drawbacks.

Hi MaryAnn,
There was a discussion a while back (here or on that other site?) about the weight of the 410, so I weighed mine on my doctor's type scale and another premium electric scale I have and both gave 21.4 lbs. I notice that the current 283 Miraphone 5/4 North Star weighs 19.8 lbs, but IDK what the older 183 weighs and was unable to scare up a weight on a Google search. I find the 410 a little bulky, but not heavy, but I am 5'6" and 75 y/o. I set it on the bell next to me and pivot it up onto my lap. You might need to use a stand to get the leadpipe low enough.

There has been a lot of discussion about these and I have never heard anyone say they required a lot of air. As far as the bell, it is a slightly different bell than the 186 bell. The design seems to work well and I do find that my tuner tells me it is pretty much "point and shoot," which is what users describe.

Where are you located? Maybe there's a 410 user somewhere near who would let you try theirs.

Best,
royjohn

Well, there is that lady I referred to who has just started coming to the band I play horn in. I'm hoping that I can get to know her a little bit and maybe she will let me blow it.

I've found that the bugle length is the major factor for me in what I can blow with my lung capacity. Longer than Eb I have trouble; but I did blow a "real" 186 once and was surprised at how responsive it was. The weight is a problem only in schlepping it, because I do the same as you in terms of setting it on the bell to my left and tilting it onto my lap and pull it upright. I use a tuba stand. Leadpipe ANGLE is a problem because I have a huge indent in my chin and need the mpc to not be straight out because if it is my lower lip/chin doesn't even touch the rim. So I have a lot of trouble with straight-in angles that force me to tilt my head back (and bend my neck funny) just to get full contact with the cup. My 183 came from someone with a similar physical setup apparently, because its leadpipe angle was already changed in the right direction but still not enough to fit my face. Not as ergonomically awful as previous tubas but still a problem until I can get it moved again, which may not be possible.

4' 8", 68 lbs, 11 years old- Miraclone, Gregson, BBC tuba stand:



Perhaps it's just a matter of adjusting the placement and angle of the stand to position it well for you.

Interesting

As long as somebody can get their mouth up to the mouthpiece at the correct angle, get their fingers on the buttons at a comfortable angle, and support the instrument, I guess that covers the basics.

My daughter was fascinated with the English horn when she was 4‘8”.

Her mother handed her an oboe and told her that the oboe would be used every day at school, whereas an English horn would not be used very often at school, and - with the oboe - she could reach nearly all the keys. Her mother found a really nicely-grained (AAAAA++) piece of cork and attached it to the one key that she could not reach, which - astonishingly - lasted for several months. Later on, she could reach the key without the piece of cork. Otherwise, her mother would have brazed on a metal extension.

Maybe I didn't post my reply. The kid clearly does not have a leadpipe angle problem since he is able to play the tuba with the leadpipe straight in.

With a straight-in leadpipe, if I didn't want to have my head tilted back at a very uncomfortable angle just to get my chin to touch the bottom of the cup, the stand would have to actually be set quite back far UNDER the chair, which of course it can't be. If you want to simulate this with yourself, put the stand out in front of the the chair about a foot, tilt the tuba towards you, and try to play it. If your chin doesn't even touch the mouthpiece, there you go, and you'll have to tilt your head back in order to do that. It is an anatomy thing, not a technique thing.

yes...There - reported - is over a foot difference in our overall height, but I doubt there's a foot different in the part of us that extends above a chair seat.

Over-and-over, I've stated that - though I would prefer to hold-and-play some tubas vs. others - I'm always able to find some sort of way to hold-and-play the majority of tubas - and without a stand, pillow, or what-have-you.

I just occurred to me that one thing that I've never mentioned is how I always sit when I play.

I sit like this - if not even more towards the front of a chair. I believe I formed the habit back when my budget state university (other than the stage chairs - which were nothing more than ice cream parlor chairs with the seats upholstered in the school color) were all those crappy molded fiberglass chairs which featured a backwards steep butt-angle (steeply downward towards the back of the chair), so I just learned to sit on the hump of those crappy chairs - at the front (actually: MORE towards the front than in this illustation)...



I suspect that this - plus (simply though supporting different tubas at different tilts - to get those tubas' mouthpipes to my mouth comfortably) unconsciously building up my inner thigh muscles - is why I can rest the vast majority of tubas (somehow) on my thighs and play them for an hour or two (without any gadgetry).

Of all the possible crappy chairs, they supplied the music ensemble rehearsal halls and practice rooms with THESE impossible things...
That having been said, I could pay my college tuition (had I not had a full ride) out of my own casual earnings.

OK you need the leadpipe to be an an angle

So what about using a sousaphone bit to get the angle you need? Or bending the Mouthpiece itself?

I rotate tubas to the left and right on my thighs (bottom bows being round is real handy, here) to raise and lower the mouthpipes, and I slide tubas in and out on my thighs to change the angle of the mouthpipes.
I don’t particularly care for the ones where the mouthpipes don’t rotate very far around the bell, because I have to put the large side of the bottom bow on my left thigh out farther than the small side on my right thigh, but I still manage.