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What do you guys think is the better horn of the two ridiculously priced cc York copies

Is there a context to this question?
I guess invariably the answer will be either "Yes" or "No", depending on the current mood of the board member.
Followed by a "go try it out.", which generally ist the wisest approach to problems along these lines.

CooperBayliff wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:58 pm What do you guys think is the better horn of the two ridiculously priced cc York copies

viewtopic.php?p=47931#p47931

According to the price lists in the link above, if you’re in the USA, the 6450 is about $16k. The Eastman 836 is going to run about $13k. Given the new approach by Buffet/Crampon (not agreeing with this approach to the market, by the way), do you still think the Baer is overpriced?

I think the Yamaha is around $40k…

Nonetheless, 6/4 tubas seem to vary enough between examples of the same model that these questions are quite difficult to answer.

@Tubeast is on the money. Without sufficient context this question is nebulous at best. Even with context, the opinions here will range the gamut.

Either would make me frown, but the Adams would make me frown more.
The Yamaha – mentioned later in this thread – would make me frown the least.
(Players focus on different strengths and weaknesses of various models, obviously.)
I’m not in the market for this type of instrument… been there / done that.

I don’t know much about ridiculous pricing. I do know a lot about ridiculous (actually a much shorter adjective: evil) government policies which systematically render our money worthless - while we struggle to earn more of it. Comparing tubas to other European-made instruments that require quite a few hours to fabricate and assemble, they seem comparatively low priced, to me. As just one example, the the waiting list for bassoons that cost over $70,000 is quite a few years long.

I'll couch my response as only considering the two horns, my playing style, and not price. The only MW 6/4 that I ever found any favor with was a 2265 at the Frankfurt Musikmesse in 2006. I even tried a few after that but never could "lock in" to get 6/4 worth of sound out of the instrument. Same goes for the 6450 either production or handmade versions. The point has been made that the 6450 is more of a 5/4+ but I won't enter into that discussion.

The Adams 6/4 is a very different animal and one that I could make work. I played the newest iteration with the fourth circuit layout changes and found it to be comfortable to hold and play but I don't like the aesthetics of this version. With the lowered fourth slide, I believe it loses symmetry and isn't as nice to view when compared to the original Yorks/Nirschl/Eastman/Yamayork/etc. Perry Hoogendijk sought to have the upper slides all within reach of his fingers. The lowered fourth circuit, and the addition of strategically place pull rings, allowed him to achieve that. I was told he wanted one with a heavier bell. This horn had some mass on it and I'm not sure I would enjoy a heavier model. Haven't tried it so I can't speak to that. Outside of those points, I thought the horn played evenly and responded well in all registers.

One would have to play them both and find which approach fits more performance requirements.

I think the answer is always to just go try it. People have very different preferences in tubas.

I’ve played tubas that people love that just plain suck, and vice versa.

I'd tend to agree with 'BuddyRogersMusic'

The 6450 is an interesting instrument. I believe its design is taken from the 2265 but with a few adjustments to make it play tighter. It's certainly easier to steer than a 2265 but I found It lost some sound quality at fortissimo. I thought it got a little bit too edgy in the upper dynamics for a 6/4 instrument. It's leaner and narrower sounding than most other York copies.

The Adams 6/4 is also an interesting instrument, quite different from the 6450 in my opinion. It's quite a bit heavier and darker sounding. It feels to me like quite a bit more effort to manoeuvre. The positive is the sound will stays very solid and dark in the upper dynamics. Of the York copies, I think this one tends much more on the darker and thicker-sounding end of the spectrum.

I wouldn't really pick either for myself, but for quite different reasons. The 6450 is kinda too narrow sounding and a bit splatty at FF+ and the Adams is a bit too heavy and beastly. I'd rather pick a good Nirschl or Eastman. They have that great York sound the 6450 doesn't really get but in a much friendlier package than the Adams.

Go and try a bunch of them and trust your gut instinct. I think it's important that you feel content with the sound. After all we do spend hours listening to ourselves play, so we want it to be a good experience that we look forward to!

YMMV

Please forgive my "reformed smoker/currently-revisiting-B-flat"
(the really easy-to-play 5)/4 C tuba, here, will NOT be sold - yet currently collecting a bit of dust, and will NOT - having owned four of five of them - own another 6/4 C
personally-copped attitude...

This size instrument works much better in B-flat (originally: wind-band tubas designed to sonically resemble double-basses, and never intended to offer forth any sonic "fist", with one special-ordered-from-Michigan in C - coming up on 90 years ago - being an anomaly), as (in my view) the taper is just too severe (in this scale) over only sixteen feet.

That having been said, it's just about as challenging to find a B-flat (which is easy to keep between the ditches, intonation-wise) as it is to find a non-headache-causing C.

All of that having been said, (again) the Yamaha (per Perry Mason: "I'm allowed to explore the Yamaha, because the prosecution brought it up") is easier to keep between the ditches (though certainly not point-and-shoot) compared to all of the other 6/4 C things I've played.

I would ask the question, why do you need a 6/4?

I have played 4 tubas that are 6/4 that are quite decent, and you all are probably not going to call them 6/4.

Alexander 164 (I’ve only played the BBb).
Meinl Weston rotor Fafner
Gronitz PCK (a good one, I’ve played some not so good ones).
The 6/4 Cerveny BBb

None of these were good enough for me to say, I must have this horn. They didn’t offer any issues where I had to do weird muscle arounds (the Gronitz had the most) and didn’t play wildly out of tune or were hard to control. I’m mainly a CC and F player in terms of “center”.

I like the (yeah: pricey) Yamaha - better than the rest of them that are C length - not only because of the easier tuning, but because it’s just a little bit smaller – maybe just a hair bigger than a Gronitz - and is a bit more (to my ears) focused.
Reportedly, more than one or two prototypes of the Yamaha were sent to a guy in Chicago, who continued to report back to Yamaha that they were all “too dark“, until one like the final product was sent. I saw one of the “too dark“ ones first hand. I also heard “Til” (R. Strauss) played on it had a rehearsal in Ravinia…and yes: that particular prototype was “too dark”.

The best of the really large B-Flats (again, those that are easiest to steer in tune) I believe also sound more focused, because the length of the taper more matches the scale (size) of the instrument… more resonance, less hollow sounding.

Of course, the really large B-flats also require more work and precision (timing/air speed/buzz frequency precision) to play them without making a bunch of errors.

Mirafone 188