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Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:49 am
by LibraryMark
Folks -
My VMI 3302 (4/4 4 piston, one rotor BBb) is becoming really hard on my fingers, especially the first valve, as I seem to be developing arthritis on the first outer joint. I am not sure if it's from playing this horn or just my age, but it's becoming an issue.
I would like to try some springs that aren't so stiff. What are my options for this horn?
Thanks -
Mark
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:55 am
by arpthark
Yamaha euph springs:
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Euphonium ... B00KIUO4BI
I had these in my old piston valve tuba and it really lightened up the action. I basically had the CC version of your tuba -- a PT-20P (B&S 4197) -- so you might find that solution also works for you.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:00 am
by LibraryMark
arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:55 am
Yamaha euph springs:
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Euphonium ... B00KIUO4BI
I had these in my old piston valve tuba and it really lightened up the action. I basically had the CC version of your tuba -- a PT-20P (B&S 4197) -- so you might find that solution also works for you.
Thanks! I just ordered a set and we'll see how it goes. Did they slow down your valves any at all?
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:09 am
by arpthark
No problem!
No, I don't recall them slowing down the valve action at all. The valve machine on that horn was very nice. I kept the tuba clean and just used regular old valve oil as needed.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:16 am
by Nworbekim
would these work in a meinl 2145? the valves in my horn wear my hand out. i was thinking of trying lighter ones. the guy i bought it from was a giant of a fellow with huge hands, i guess he needed the xtra hard action or something.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:28 am
by arpthark
Nworbekim wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:16 am
would these work in a meinl 2145? the valves in my horn wear my hand out. i was thinking of trying lighter ones. the guy i bought it from was a giant of a fellow with huge hands, i guess he needed the xtra hard action or something.
I believe the MW 2145s made since the 1990s and the two tubas mentioned above actually use the same pistons (but the slide routing is a bit different) -- B&S/MW/VMI "big valve". Even if you had the older small-valve 2145 I don't see any reason why the Yamaha euph springs wouldn't work. Tons of people use 'em.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:58 am
by Nworbekim
arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:28 am
Nworbekim wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:16 am
would these work in a meinl 2145? the valves in my horn wear my hand out. i was thinking of trying lighter ones. the guy i bought it from was a giant of a fellow with huge hands, i guess he needed the xtra hard action or something.
I believe the MW 2145s made since the 1990s and the two tubas mentioned above actually use the same pistons (but the slide routing is a bit different) -- B&S/MW/VMI "big valve". Even if you had the older small-valve 2145 I don't see any reason why the Yamaha euph springs wouldn't work. Tons of people use 'em.
i'm not sure of the manufacture date. it's a rainy day here, so i'll make that today's project. thanks
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:16 am
by bloke
Yamaha springs don’t seem to quite fit in the indentions in German tuba bottom caps.
That having been said, I’ve never gone to the trouble to mount them in the lathe and hit the caps with a slightly larger end mill.
I’ve wondered about a delrin adapter that pressed tightly into those in indentions which would also feature a riser which would fit slightly loosely inside Yamaha springs’ coils. Of course, it would have a hole drilled out through the middle.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:19 am
by arpthark
My tech at the time ordered and installed 'em. He might have fudged the spring a bit to fit. I don't remember any specific issues with the setup, but this was over 10 years ago. Worked great for me.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:17 pm
by russiantuba
I use Yamaha euph springs on my 1291CC. My tech told me to use tuba springs on my Gronitz PF 125 (not sure why), but they are coated and light weight just like the euph springs
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:13 pm
by Ace
Nworbekim wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:16 am
would these work in a meinl 2145? the valves in my horn wear my hand out. i was thinking of trying lighter ones. the guy i bought it from was a giant of a fellow with huge hands, i guess he needed the xtra hard action or something.
Yes, they will work on a MW 2145. When I bought my MW 2145 from our esteemed colleague, Roger Lewis, at WW&BW, he enclosed in the case a set of Yamaha euphonium springs. I never used them, preferring instead the stiffer MW springs.
Ace
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:58 pm
by bort2.0
I think Yamaha euph springs aren't strong enough. Yamaha tuba springs are much better for me.
Any piston tuba I get receives the following:
* Yamaha tuba springs
* Sellmansberger valve buttons
* PVAK or synthetic washers
* Delrin valve guides
Haven't tried MAW valves yet, but seems like a fun thing to try out.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:39 pm
by bloke
Who remembers - 30/40/50 years ago - when teachers/others/nearly everyone was recommending getting some "good strong springs" - so you can play fast ?
...and yes the eastern-German-made tubas springs aren't ridiculous, but (to me) they are quite a bit too strong.
===========================================================
This is the (probably, made of delrin) "adapter" that I've imagined:
- adapter.png (610 Bytes) Viewed 1031 times
The picture is poorly/hastily drawn and not to scale, but the fatter part would pop (tightly) into the B&S/M-W bottom valve cap spring indentions, and the smaller top part would fit (a bit loosely) inside Yamaha tuba or euphonium valve springs.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:11 am
by LibraryMark
bloke wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:39 pm
Who remembers - 30/40/50 years ago - when teachers/others/nearly everyone was recommending getting some "good strong springs" - so you can play fast ?
...and yes the eastern-German-made tubas springs aren't ridiculous, but (to me) they are quite a bit too strong.
===========================================================
This is the (probably, made of delrin) "adapter" that I've imagined:
adapter.png
The picture is poorly/hastily drawn and not to scale, but the fatter part would pop (tightly) into the B&S/M-W bottom valve cap spring indentions, and the smaller top part would fit (a bit loosely) inside Yamaha tuba or euphonium valve springs.
I have a decent 3D printer. Might have to make a prototype once my springs show up.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:53 am
by LibraryMark
So after spending some time on the horn with the Yamaha euph springs I have found that my fingers are happier and the valves are no slower than they were before. But there is not as much difference as I would have thought between the two sets of springs.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:35 pm
by matt g
Glad those worked out!
The great thing about front action pistons is that the springs only need to be strong enough to slide the piston back forward. There isn’t much weight at this angle and hopefully not too much friction.
My MW has very light springs. When it’s laying down, the pistons “sag” a little. But in normal playing position, everything is fine and the pistons are fast.
Re: Lighter Springs for my VMI 3302
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:40 pm
by York-aholic
The springs in my York 712 are so light that if the horn is horizontal in my lap, they don’t push the pistons all the way up but are perfect in playing position. I know instantly when I need to clean things.