Abe Torchinsky's rotary CC King

[the elephant]

Happy Tuba Tuesday, everyone! This is a King Monster CC rotary tuba model 1293 from about 1936

This tuba is one of three of this model that were altered so that the third valve slide was available for tuning. This tuba was played in both the NBC Symphony and the Philadelphia Orchestra by Abe Torchinsky. Check out the letter detailing it's unique history and the King catalog page that features it!

Please see the photos at:
https://simonettitubacollection.com/ins ... y-ca-1936/

[bisontuba]

Great and important addition!!

[bort2.0]

Very cool -- who is the "Randy" that the letter is addressed to?

[LeMark]

Maybe Vince knows

[DandyZ629]

What a sound this beast made is his hands! How I wish I owned it.

[bort2.0]

What a sound this beast made is his hands! How I wish I owned it.

By most accounts, these old Kings were beasts -- very difficult to play well. I know a player here in Minnesota (haven't talked to him in a few years) who grew up in Philly listening to Abe... so naturally, he wanted to sound like Abe, and got a tuba just like Abe's. He played it or 40+ years... and then much later in life decided to start trying/buying newer instruments (BMB and Wessex, I believe). He was pretty blown away by how much easier it was to play the new stuff than the old King.

[DandyZ629]

What a sound this beast made is his hands! How I wish I owned it.

By most accounts, these old Kings were beasts -- very difficult to play well. I know a player here in Minnesota (haven't talked to him in a few years) who grew up in Philly listening to Abe... so naturally, he wanted to sound like Abe, and got a tuba just like Abe's. He played it or 40+ years... and then much later in life decided to start trying/buying newer instruments (BMB and Wessex, I believe). He was pretty blown away by how much easier it was to play the new stuff than the old King.

Yeah, i'm willing to put up with quirks for sure to get the ideal sound in my head. The sound Abe and Joe Novotny, especially, made with one of these, is almost exactly that ideal sound. A thick, dense, colourful, sound that you can almost walk on it's so solid.

[hrender]

“Randy” might be Randy Harrison (hbcrandy on TN) who studied with Mr. Torchinsky, I believe.

[DandyZ629]

“Randy” might be Randy Harrison (hbcrandy on TN) who studied with Mr. Torchinsky, I believe.

That was going to be my guess.

[bort2.0]

“Randy” might be Randy Harrison (hbcrandy on TN) who studied with Mr. Torchinsky, I believe.

That was going to be my guess.

I was assuming that as well. I invited Randy to join us here a while ago... Will follow up with him. @Mark E. Chachich and Randy are very good life long friends... So maybe Mark knows as well? 1990 wasn't all THAT long ago (ok, it was, but still...).

I know Randy studied with Paul K... But yes, I do think he was in Philly early enough to be there for Abe as well.

I'll have to see if Paul Maybery can join us and fill us in as well. He's the other person that I was talking about. I had forgotten his name before, and just remembered.

[LeMark]

I sent him an invitation as well, along with this thread

[Mikelynch]

Randy would be a more authoritative source if he joins, but by reputation Mr. T’s King was reputed to have the best intonation of the group. Joe Novotny’s is manageable, with only one real challenging note. I can’t recall now, if Mr T’s was from the first or second run of those.

From my best recollection of a discussion with Mr T many years ago, the horn was sitting in some rehearsal space (don’t recall which), where he saw it, not in playing condition, with some of the the valve strings broken, and he found the owner and bought it.

Mike

[York-aholic]

Mr. Torchisky's horn was not one of the first batch of 7 that had consecutive serial numbers in the 175,XXX region, which look to me to have been made in the 1934-1935 time frame. Mr. Torchinsky's (from the museum web page) is 227692. The H.N.White webpage (and Horn-u-copia) would put his around 1939, the Conn Selmer page puts it around 1940-1941. The museum's page says 1936...

Paul Mayberry told me that in his opinion, the one he owned played better than Mr. Torchinsky's or either of Mr. Bell's. I think I remember him telling me that Mr. Torchinsky felt that his (Mr. T's) had the best intonation of the bunch. Mr. Mayberry also related to me that the batches made after WWII (perhaps while Mr. Bell was at IU) were not as good since the skills of hand making a tuba had deteriorated.

Here is mine (#6 from the first batch of 7, with a 20" straight ahead sousaphone like (rather than angled up a bit) bell (with matching serial number)):

I have a later vintage 19" upright bell for it. The sousaphone bit was in it when I bought it, but doesn't live there anymore.

[York-aholic]

This tuba is one of three of this model that were altered so that the third valve slide was available for tuning.

There were 3 of them that had the third valve tubing rerouted upwards.

Paul Mayberry wrote that Mr. T's horn was from the first batch, but the serial number (from the Museum's website) doesn't bare that out. Torchinsky's (according to his letter) was the first to have the third tubing modified. His was from the 2nd batch (run of four I believe), then had the 3rd tubing modified, Paul's was modified (the work done on both of these 2nd batch horns was done at the King factory), as was one of Mr. Bell's 1st batch horns. The reference to the factory incorporating this modification into later horns must refer to the 3rd and final batch (I have heard it was another group of 4).

Interestingly, when Meinl Weston built the Bell model (MW30?) they also routed the 3rd tubing up and seemed to continue that on other tubas like the MW25, etc.

[York-aholic]

Here is a picture of Mr. Torchinsky with either his tuba pre-3rd valve tubing modification or with another one of the King rotary CCs...

[hbcrandy]

Very cool -- who is the "Randy" that the letter is addressed to?

I suspect it is one of Mr. Torchinsky's students, Randy Evenden who bought the tuba from Mr. Torchinsky. I know this because, years ago when I studied with Mr. Torchinsky, I was interested in buying his former tuba and tracked down the owner with help from Mr. Torchinsky. Unfortunately, the tuba was not for sale at that time or I would still own it.

[bloke]

I never understood the cockeyed mounting of the row of rotors on those instruments...

...assigning them a "been-in-an-accident-and-put-back-together-the-best-someone-could-manage" look, yet built that way purposefully.

[edfirth]

I can say pretty for sure that the early Bfalts of these monster basses had upright(like an old Mirafone) valve clusters. I own one and have seen three others. I don't know when they changed to the slanted valve clusters but they did. The one at Baltimore Brass is slanted. I've not seen a C with the straight line valves but there could certainly be one out there. Speaking from experience the first time I took mine on a job, Candlelight Processional at the Rat, by the second show my right wrist/hand were really sore. Almost debilitatingly so. The next day I got Tom Treece to put a big octagonal German coin on the end of the first spatula which changed the angle of my wrist. The intense pain stopped and three or so days in it was gone altogether. I bet others had the same experience and King chose to slant the valveset which Ifind very comfortable. I've gotten to play on Joe Novotny's horn as well as one that came here from Mark Jones, both C's with slant valves. But I agree that it almost looks like an aftermarket addition. When did Meinl Weston start slanting their bridge? My particular horn is pretty amazing. That first night at Candlelight the whole brass section, the herald trumpets, people in the cast choir, and even people in the audience while I was leaving commented on that horn. And I had been playing my trusty 2341 for the beginning of the run as well as the last few years. Trace Atkins the singer was narrator for a show and he caught me going offstage and commented on it. He really liked it. They are quirky but the sound they want to make is special. If I wasn't retired I'd try to get York aholic to sell me his C. And the string valves are as fast, quiet, and as smooth as any Mirafone I've tried( and I think Mirafone valves are the gold standard). So I was lucky to get it ...and have a great repair guy who is a great friend...and it proves that "Even a blind chicken gets a worm sometime" Ed

[MN_TimTuba]

“Randy” might be Randy Harrison (hbcrandy on TN) who studied with Mr. Torchinsky, I believe.

That was going to be my guess.

I was assuming that as well. I invited Randy to join us here a while ago... Will follow up with him. @Mark E. Chachich and Randy are very good life long friends... So maybe Mark knows as well? 1990 wasn't all THAT long ago (ok, it was, but still...).
I know Randy studied with Paul K... But yes, I do think he was in Philly early enough to be there for Abe as well.

I'll have to see if Paul Maybery can join us and fill us in as well. He's the other person that I was talking about. I had forgotten his name before, and just remembered.

Brett, Paul,
There may be another in MN. When I visited repairman EP in Minneapolis I'm positive he had one of these long-paddle string Kings laying on a pile of stuff in the living room. He mentioned to me that he liked it but didn't get the chance to play it much anymore. Next time I take something to him (...?!...) I'm going to ask to have a go at it.
Tim

[bort2.0]

Oh that's right, I saw that in there too, the one time I went to his house.

The King rotary BBb's were said to be much better than the CC's, but that's another story altogether!