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I'm looking for something that's roughly an F baritone. Something to fill the role of a bass trombone, but will sit still in your lap. Not ungainly like a cimbasso, something compact. Not sure I want the thing the Bubbie is modeled after:



Or that crazy radiator looking thing



Probably something more along these lines, that plays reasonably in tune. 4 valves would probably be ok for me.



It's ok if it sounds more like a trombone or baritone than a tuba, in fact that would probably be preferred. Any ideas? Should I start looking on the wall at Applebees?

A Melton/Meinl-Weston 182 seems to be about as small as one can make an F tuba without tons of compromises.

There’s also the Wessex copy of that old British F tuba. No idea about that.

I love my 182. I've used it where "bass trombone" is notated. It functions fine, but it's not a substitute for a trombone. It's a GREAT F tuba, but it's still very much a tuba.

What about a Wagner tuba in F?
https://us.wessex-tubas.com/products/bb ... ec46870d11

From a horn player's point of view, those Wagner tubas, even the good ones, are nasty little beasties.

The radiator-looking ZO travel tubas are nice players - much better than the Wessex tornisters in my experience. I played a CC that blew me away at NAMM. But they certainly don't sound like a trombone as much as the Wessex Bubbies (which I'm convinced you could use as a contrabass cornet).

Wagner tuba is just too weird, wrong handed valves and all. The 182 thing looks cool, but it's still pretty tubish, if that's a word. The ZO radiator - I would need to play it. Enough people have kind of shat on the Bubbie from a tuba point of view, but has anyone thought of it as a bass baritone? Bass bone ergonomics are going to catch up with me, I need something.

The Melton / Meinl-Weston trolley tuba sounds like what you need. Yeah, it costs a bunch of money.

Here's one:


f tuba

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:54 pm ... they certainly don't sound like a trombone as much as the Wessex Bubbies (which I'm convinced you could use as a contrabass cornet).

Have you played a Bubbie 5? Can you comment on that a little? If you're not expecting it to sound like a tuba, can it be used as a musical instrument?

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:52 pm Wagner tuba is just too weird, wrong handed valves and all. The 182 thing looks cool, but it's still pretty tubish, if that's a word. The ZO radiator - I would need to play it. Enough people have kind of shat on the Bubbie from a tuba point of view, but has anyone thought of it as a bass baritone? Bass bone ergonomics are going to catch up with me, I need something.

I had a MW 182 and it really did sound like a tuba in the low register. More "growly" than many. Up high, very easy to play. For me, rotary low C and thereabouts problems that most who stick with it seem to manage to deal with. But it is not a sub for a bass bone. I really, really wanted to get into bass bone (inspired by Doug Yeo) but waited too long in terms of physical decline due to age, and by the time I got to it realized it was a Nope. But if you can still deal with the right arm flailing, can't you use something like the Ergobone for the weight? Or have I got the problem definition wrong? And of course I don't know if someone mentioned cimbasso yet. Rests on the floor and has valves -- and perhaps closer to bass bone than many other things, and it depends on where you play how much they care what you bring with you.

Or, as people said, just do TUBA! That's what I did!!

I keep wondering why no one here has built a vavled bass trombone in the form of a cimbasso. I think that is more or less what Joe's basstrombasso is. I will be making something like this next year. I've had the parts for about five years now, but do not need such a horn, so I keep forgetting to built it. I suppose I could build it to sell…

I forgot about this thing:

https://www.robbstewart.com/fluba

Anyhow, I’d agree that a quasi torso height bodied something or other with a bass trombone bell on a gooseneck would be handy.

Yes, I own and use an Ergobone. It does help to some extent, but it is awkward and clumsy and takes time to set up or move from horn to horn. I use it, but...

And I own a 3/4 BBb which works more or less, and has helped me learn tuba to some extent. The valve instrument that's easiest to play ergonomically is a Festivo, but I like the sound of a 24i, and I need the usable lower range of the bass bone. Cimbasso is just such an awkwardly shaped instrument.

I've seen some old tubas that look like they might work, like the 3rd picture I posted in my original post. But old instruments are a crap shoot, and I could buy and sell a dozen of them without finding something that worked. Is there something old that would work? What is that thing in the picture I posted? (came from some art site, not a musical instrument site).

I guess I'm trying to optimize to get something with valves that plays in tune, easy to hold, with the "under the staff" notes playable, and with more definition than a tuba. F baritone is the best way to describe it. Bubbie seems to be most of the way there, but I think the bore/bell is too small. I haven't played one yet, but seems that way from reports.

There are several one-offs out there like the Jim Self stuff that would work. But that would be an expensive custom job. I wouldn't know where to start with a custom job. What valve set, what body/bell?

the elephant wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:04 am I keep wondering why no one here has built a vavled bass trombone in the form of a cimbasso. I think that is more or less what Joe's basstrombasso is. I will be making something like this next year. I've had the parts for about five years now, but do not need such a horn, so I keep forgetting to built it. I suppose I could build it to sell…

Alternatively, I keep wondering why no one builds cimbassos in the shape of tubas. :) Or in the shape of bell front bariphoniums.

cjk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:19 pm

the elephant wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:04 am I keep wondering why no one here has built a vavled bass trombone in the form of a cimbasso. I think that is more or less what Joe's basstrombasso is. I will be making something like this next year. I've had the parts for about five years now, but do not need such a horn, so I keep forgetting to built it. I suppose I could build it to sell…

Alternatively, I keep wondering why no one builds cimbassos in the shape of tubas. :) Or in the shape of bell front bariphoniums.

Cimbassos are just such ungainly awkward things that retain the over-the-shoulder ergo-nightmare. Bariphonium or basstrombonium or bass baritone would be cool. Bubbie, but with a reasonable bore - aimed at a big phat trombone/baritone sound bass parts, not contra parts.

How about you take a skinny Bb baritone, add a 4th valve, and just hold the 4th down all the time? My college euph instructor had such a device on his Besson. May be the simplest and cheapest way to get there.
Tim

MN_TimTuba wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:41 pm How about you take a skinny Bb baritone, add a 4th valve, and just hold the 4th down all the time? My college euph instructor had such a device on his Besson. May be the simplest and cheapest way to get there.
Tim

I've tried that with my Festivo, but tenor range instruments just don't sound good down there on a regular basis. They get blatty, don't slot really well. I think you'd have to lower the whole fundamental of the instrument.

French C Tuba?

bone-a-phone wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:31 amHave you played a Bubbie 5? Can you comment on that a little? If you're not expecting it to sound like a tuba, can it be used as a musical instrument?

Unfortunately I've only played the old 4-valve Bubbie (I think TE133 is the model, vs. TF135 of the Bubbie 5). I think it could absolutely be used as a real instrument, just not for anything you'd use a "real" tuba for. As I mentioned, I really think it could work well as an F bass/contrabass cornet (which basically matches up with your "F baritone" description). It has a nice, compact sound that has a cornet-like brightness to it. I'm not convinced it would be loud or open enough to use as a substitute cimbasso, but I could be wrong. As for its playability, well...it's small. Don't expect a monster low register! That said, in the context of "narrow bass-register instrument you aren't playing to be the foundation of a concert band or loud orchestral brass section" I remember it being pretty good. I'm sure the Bubbie 5 is even better. For the right price (ultra cheap), I'd love to get one to test out my low cornet theories.

cjk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:19 pmAlternatively, I keep wondering why no one builds cimbassos in the shape of tubas. :) Or in the shape of bell front bariphoniums.

Kalison has done tuba-shaped F cimbassos. It does seem like there should be an easier solution to getting one bell front (Like Jim Self's bell front baritone-shaped "Jimbasso") to match the trombones than the giant L shape we're used to. But maybe wrapping the tubing up more would make it stuffier?

matt g wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:54 pm A Melton/Meinl-Weston 182 seems to be about as small as one can make an F tuba without tons of compromises.

There’s also the Wessex copy of that old British F tuba. No idea about that.

I have a MW182, and I would say it does not fit the desired sound profile for this person's use case.