brass instrument finish aesthetics

[bloke]

typical opinions:

- Gold is amazing (even though it looks just like lacquer).
- Silver is professional (OK… Until it turns black, and the repaired areas turn brown and gray)
- Epoxy lacquer is “student” (though it’s remarkably durable)
- Nitrocellulose lacquer is “professional” (according to a manufacturer in Elkhart…??)
- Chrome plating is gauche. (OK… I admit that I agree with this.)
- Raw brass is “professional” (also cheap to do and - soon - stinky)

Based on what I’ve seen of the French language areas manufactured instruments from Europe (heavy past use), properly done nickel (and epoxy lacquer) might be the most practical…??
related:
Which of us here can hear the grass grow?
—————-
( ‘ was reminded of this by the Ophicleide thread.)

[the elephant]

I like *good* nickel plating with *good* baked epoxy lacquer. I almost never see this today. I wonder how much it would cost me to have the Holton's bugle tarted up like this (if I did all the buffing/degreasing/etc.) versus having them silver plate it. Any idea, offhand, for nickel/lacquer versus silver?

Any issues with heavily applied nickel covered in epoxy lacquer? (I don't believe in the materials making a discernable difference, so bare brass, plated (with whatever) brass or lacquered brass make no difference to me. Once I have this tuba completely dialed in I won't be hitting it with a torch voluntarily ever again. (Or so he says…)

[bloke]

Based on what I’ve seen over the years – me being old, lacquer seems to best the best to brass or nickel-brass, second best to nickel plating, and third best to silver or silver plating.

Examples of that to which you refer are Conn “Connstellation” instruments, original issue King “Tempo” instruments, and late-era Olds “Studio” instruments.
You may be more resourceful than I am, but I don’t believe you’re going to find a nickel tank in the United States of America that is large enough for your Holton instrument.
There may be one place with a tank large enough to accommodate your instrument body and your instrument bell separately…
All I can be somewhat certain about is that tank will reportedly accommodate a 17 inch bell, because I am going to have a Mahillon bell done there.

[the elephant]

Yep. 20" bell.

Drat.

I guess I'll have to buy a case of this stuff…

[bloke]

“Ha-ha-ha”…etc., but
Have I told you what my eventual plans are for my smaller Holton?

[DonO.]

Have you guys ever seen an Adams euphonium in what they call “antique” finish? I don’t know how they do it exactly, but I know I dig it!

[bloke]

Decades ago - when Willson would rarely lacquer one of their instruments - those that they did lacquer would often “check” - perhaps too much drying retarder, epoxy hardener, or too much baking time…??
I stripped that checked mess off of my euphonium, because I didn’t want to eat into the instrument in between the little chunks of lacquer.
Over the years – as I procrastinated from putting another finish on it – it developed a wonderful natural patina… which really looks much nicer than those Adams fake ones.
I sold that instrument to a friend who intended on silver plating it, but he has grown to like the “finish” as well.
I don’t know what Adams uses, but there is a chemical that also has a very old-fashioned name called “liver of sulfur“ which tarnishes copper based metals quite quickly.

[the elephant]

… there is a chemical that also has a very old-fashioned name called “liver of sulfur“ which tarnishes copper based metals quite quickly.

Yes. It works very well, too.

[Tubeast]

I hadn´t polished my silver-plated horn in 13 years and it was heavily tarnished.
Recently found "Poliboy Silber Intensivpflege", and suddenly the horn looks like new.
Apply the stuff with moist sponge - no need to rub, just apply gently - wipe off with moist cloth - done.

Under these circumstances, silver is best for me, as well.
Other than that: I´m not sure which to prefer, clear lacquer or a rich, warm gold tone.
On a horn with basic brass: maybe the latter.
If a horn features some parts in gold- or rose brass while others are plain brass, clear lacquer may be better to prove the special materials upon selling the horn later...

What do You think?

[bloke]

I personally tend to suspect that very thin (from a-coat-of-aerosol-paint thick down to 1/3 of a thousandth of an inch thick metal) coatings on instruments - instruments which do little more than house very specifically-shaped air columns - offer effects which are just about nil.
I do understand that many many people tend to view wind instruments as if they are acoustic guitars or percussion instruments (body resonating instruments), where such factors are of consideration. (Even so, percussion instruments, string instruments, etc. are marketed with all sorts of coverings on them, and I witness most people purchasing percussion instruments, pianos, and etc. based on their looks, rather than how those different coverings and finishes can affect their sound.) I believe any (??) effects of very thin finishes on air column instruments are easily overcome by slightly different shaped mouthpieces and playing approaches. I also believe that people misattribute differences in air column instruments to finishes when it’s nearly always (if not always) something else that is causing the differences.

I’m actually planning on putting a nearly-dimensional/nearly-measurably-thick finish on one of my tubas. I completely expect it to sound and respond the same as before.

[Mary Ann]

I don't believe in the materials making a discernable difference

A horn playing friend of mine who is a retired physics professor, said that if you made a concrete flute with the exact same dimensions as one of those fancy platinum expensive ones, it would sound the same. (He is one of the smartest people I've ever met, too)

[LargeTuba]

@the elephant you could try nickel plating at home. It is significantly cheaper and less dangerous than silver plating.

[Yorkboy]

Pretty well-known (to those who care, or care to notice) that as a feature of the horns I build, I’m a fan of brushed raw brass. Satin silver is much nicer, but too expensive and troublesome to prep. Lacquer finished always turned me off (subjective opinion, so don’t ask me to explain why).

I’ve thought of maybe trying a paste wax, but I’m just too lazy to bother.

As to acoustics, I’m no physicist, but I don’t think finish makes one bit of difference on sound (based on almost 50 years of experience, YMMV).

[MikeMason]

Finish diffence is to acoustics what homeopathy is to medicine. My opinion. Now, there are practical and useful differences and looks are important to many people to varying degrees.

[DonO.]

Back when I was in college, in the 70’s, there were a number of “collective wisdom” types of preconceived notions about instruments and their finishes. The consensus seemed to be that silver plated horns had a brighter sound with more of a defined edge, which may be desirable or not depending on the instrument. Also, a bell made out of rose brass with a higher copper content gave a mellower, darker tone.

There were also preconceived notions about what your main axe had to be. If what you played didn’t conform, you weren’t taken seriously as a musician. Before you even played a note, you were judged on what you took out of your case. Here is what you had to have:

Trumpet- a Vincent Bach, silver plated large bore.
French horn- Holton “Farkas” double, lacquer
Trombone- Conn 88H with rose brass bell, lacquer
Euphonium- Besson Sovereign compensating, silver plated
Tuba- Mirafone (spelling deliberate for the era) or Meinl Weston, or anything German 4 valve rotary, lacquer.
Flute- Gemeinhardt, solid silver, open hole
Clarinet- Buffet, grenadillo with silver keys
Saxophone- Selmer Mark VI alto, lacquer (not sure if they were available any other way).

These were all the default choices for the “serious” music student. I thought it was funny that trumpet players felt they needed the extra perceived “edge” of silver plating. Aren’t most trumpets edgy enough? By contrast, euphoniums might actually benefit from the additional “brighter” tone of silver plating, if true.

Of course I know all of these notions are hogwash. But it’s interesting to consider how they got started.

[jtm]

I had one of those clarinets in 6th grade (at about the same time). It was a fantastic beginner instrument because I could be sure that (1) any bad playing was because of me, and (2) if I did it right, it sounded good.

[cjk]

This thread is awful wordy for "lacquer vs silver".

Lacquer is the obvious answer because it's easier for bloke to make it pretty after I mess up my tuba.

Also, worn through silver plate is just ugly.

/thread.

[DonO.]

This thread is awful wordy for "lacquer vs silver".

Lacquer is the obvious answer because it's easier for bloke to make it pretty after I mess up my tuba.

Also, worn through silver plate is just ugly.

/thread.

Ah, but it’s not that simple! You are forgetting nickel plating, chrome, and raw brass! Plus epoxy vs. nitro. If we shouldn’t use a whole bunch of words to discuss a subject to absolute death, of what use is a forum?

Also, I am curious about epoxy vs. nitro lacquer. Most of the new instruments these days boast “oven baked” epoxy lacquer, which should be darn near indestructible. Nevertheless, I’m sure there are situations where it needs to be touched up. How is this done? Would the old lacquer need to be removed first? That must be difficult to pull off. Or does nitro stick to the epoxy?

One advantage of nitro is that it melts into itself. That should make touch up easier. The same can’t be said for epoxy.

I will never forget one day in my youth, with my fairly new Cerveny made Amati, in a hot un- air conditioned rehearsal venue on a hot summer day, I was sweating like crazy and, when practice was over, a huge sheet of lacquer stuck to my arm where it contacted my horn, right where the bell joins the body. Peeled off and stuck fast to my sweaty forearm in one piece. I’m guessing this was not oven baked epoxy. Never bothered getting it fixed, just figured them’s the breaks.

[bloke]

This thread is awful wordy for "lacquer vs silver".

Lacquer is the obvious answer because it's easier for bloke to make it pretty after I mess up my tuba.

Also, worn through silver plate is just ugly.

/thread.

You are unthinkingly (or due to biases...??) omitting "paint" (yup - PAINT), and patina.

but bloke..."SERIOUS" brass musicians do not PAINT their instruments.

bloke "Hold my beer."

[cjk]

Ah, but it’s not that simple! You are forgetting nickel plating, chrome, and raw brass! Plus epoxy vs. nitro. If we shouldn’t use a whole bunch of words to discuss a subject to absolute death, of what use is a forum?
....

IMHO, nickel plating is cheap and generally done to cheap instruments. I generally avoid it.

The only instruments I've seen chromed have been drum corps (ahem) "instruments".