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I found a copy of the Los Angeles Cimbasso Choir playing an arrangement of Sibelius' "Finlandia". Eight cimbassos, a Wagner tuba and a couple of rotary bass trumpets. Sounds really big!

https://youtu.be/knbuXqTJBew

Happy New Year, all!

Is that tubist William Roper in the red cap? I know he owns at least 2 cimbassos as I have seen him perform on one a couple of times in Los Angeles.

So ok, as long as we're talking about cimbassos --- educate me. Range? usual key(s)? I guess they are like a super bass trombone in sound? Looks like fun, of course.

Oh and is it a SIMbasso or a CHIMbasso?

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:09 am So ok, as long as we're talking about cimbassos --- educate me. Range? usual key(s)? I guess they are like a super bass trombone in sound? Looks like fun, of course.

Oh and is it a SIMbasso or a CHIMbasso?

Most of the factory horns seem to be in F, Kalison used to have a contrabass model, can't recall if C or Bb. A 5 valve Bb cimbasso would be a blast in a big trombone choir.

Mine is a small bore, 3 valve Eb so I could get a cheap 3 valve valve set and still get low Bb which is important as a bass trombone substitute. Most of them are effectively contrabass trombone substitutes. Mine is probably pretty close to those old F valve trombones, but a lot easier to hold.
http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/rot ... 576-4-bass

I really wish I'd kept my F contrabass trumpet, that would have been a fun comparison. I bought it from Grant at the contrabass website, it went away with a bunch of other cool stuff during a purge.
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/cbtp.html

Bob Kolada wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:12 pm

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:09 am So ok, as long as we're talking about cimbassos --- educate me. Range? usual key(s)? I guess they are like a super bass trombone in sound? Looks like fun, of course.

Oh and is it a SIMbasso or a CHIMbasso?

Mine is a small bore, 3 valve Eb so I could get a cheap 3 valve valve set and still get low Bb which is important as a bass trombone substitute. Most of them are effectively contrabass trombone substitutes. Mine is probably pretty close to those old F valve trombones, but a lot easier to hold.
http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/rot ... 576-4-bass

Most of the cimbassos I've read about are kinda like that bass valve trombone but bent in half with a peg to set it down on at the bottom.

Wessex has a cimbasso in Eb in their catalog. I suppose so the Eb people don't have to learn F.

I have heard it pronounced CHIMbasso. If I'm wrong, I'm sure I will be corrected.

https://italian.stackexchange.com/quest ... in-italian

Typically “ci” in Italian is pronounced “chi” in English.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:09 am So ok, as long as we're talking about cimbassos --- educate me. Range? usual key(s)? I guess they are like a super bass trombone in sound? Looks like fun, of course.

Oh and is it a SIMbasso or a CHIMbasso?

A modern cimbasso (indeed pronounced CHIMbasso) is a contrabass valve trombone with a bend in the middle. Not just trombone-adjacent, it is literally a trombone! Just a very odd one.

They are made in all 4 tuba keys (F, Eb, CC, BBb) but are usually in F. As far as I know, F cimbasso is the standard for Italian opera, while the bigger CC/BBb cimbassi are favored in film sessions. Eb is the odd one out, but some people do play it.

Here's some great cimbasso playing that really demonstrates its trombone-ness:

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:36 am

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:09 am So ok, as long as we're talking about cimbassos --- educate me. Range? usual key(s)? I guess they are like a super bass trombone in sound? Looks like fun, of course.

Oh and is it a SIMbasso or a CHIMbasso?

A modern cimbasso (indeed pronounced CHIMbasso) is a contrabass valve trombone with a bend in the middle. Not just trombone-adjacent, it is literally a trombone! Just a very odd one.

They are made in all 4 tuba keys (F, Eb, CC, BBb) but are usually in F. As far as I know, F cimbasso is the standard for Italian opera, while the bigger CC/BBb cimbassi are favored in film sessions. Eb is the odd one out, but some people do play it.

Here's some great cimbasso playing that really demonstrates its trombone-ness:

yeah...I'm building one in (9-feet cylindrical-ish bugle - bass trombone bell section / .562" valveset bore) B-flat, and I think Wade's getting ready to do something similar.

me: because my slide technique sucks, and there are at least three or four times annually where (paid well, fwiw) a more authentic bass trombone sound would do better than covering such parts on the compensating euphonium - even though my euphonium is a good-intonation/loud/good-low-range one. (I already built one in F that serves me well: https://i.imgur.com/uuZ0O15.jpg )

Wade: no idea re motivations/plans/progress...

"cimbasso" - I dislike the application of this word, as there were no valved contrabass trombones when Verdi wrote it (1830's) at the top of some 4th "bass brass instrument" parts to some of his early operas, but I've given up on the avoidance of the nomenclature. After all: People insist on using the "what's that?" quasi-word, "tubist".

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:49 amyeah...I'm building one in (9-feet cylindrical-ish bugle - bass trombone bell section / .562" valveset bore) B-flat, and I think Wade's getting ready to do something similar.

Even though I'm a (slide) bass trombonist, I'd love to do something similar myself. More valve instruments are always fun, and I can think of a few uses for a cimbasso-shape (or even tuba shape??) bass valve trombone.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:58 am

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:49 amyeah...I'm building one in (9-feet cylindrical-ish bugle - bass trombone bell section / .562" valveset bore) B-flat, and I think Wade's getting ready to do something similar.

Even though I'm a (slide) bass trombonist, I'd love to do something similar myself. More valve instruments are always fun, and I can think of a few uses for a cimbasso-shape (or even tuba shape??) bass valve trombone.

I'm aware of your playing prowess...I've listened to a few of your videos...

Based on the sound in those videos, I'd have a ball with one of those. Can think of community bands with weak bass trombones that wouldn't mind the addition of the sound, too. I always was attracted to bass tbone but knew ahead of time I can't hold one up, nor are my arms long enough to reach the last position. If I did not already have enough instruments "in the learning queue" I'd be tempted.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:16 pm Based on the sound in those videos, I'd have a ball with one of those. Can think of community bands with weak bass trombones that wouldn't mind the addition of the sound, too. I always was attracted to bass tbone but knew ahead of time I can't hold one up, nor are my arms long enough to reach the last position. If I did not already have enough instruments "in the learning queue" I'd be tempted.

I've thought about learning cimbasso because I think its a cool instrument and, as MA says, it would be a good bass trombone sound to add. It would add some novelty to the group to amuse the audience as well as improve the sound.

For a couple of years we had a lady on a bass sax who played very well and was quite the addition to the band. But she moved away. She read bass clef too, so she doubled the tuba parts.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:16 pm Based on the sound in those videos, I'd have a ball with one of those. Can think of community bands with weak bass trombones that wouldn't mind the addition of the sound, too. I always was attracted to bass tbone but knew ahead of time I can't hold one up, nor are my arms long enough to reach the last position. If I did not already have enough instruments "in the learning queue" I'd be tempted.

They're pretty fragile...and it requires just a bit of athleticism (and a bit of size helps) to assemble the thing.
Back when I had a Chinese one (which was a ton of work to play and to play in tune) I carried it around in a Cronkhite contrabass trombone bag (into which it barely fit - disassembled, obviously. After I built my own (which - no false modestly - is far superior, and built of superior mechanisms), there was no way that I was going to carry it around in a bag...I carry it around in one of those rectangular trunk/"Anvil"-style cases. I have two wheels on it, but it's a bear to wrestle out of the car and into the venue (even with stage door parking). ...and - besides schlepping that - I'm nearly always hauling in at least ONE tuba, as well as a K&M bass clarinet/bassoon stand (which I use on stage for quick changes between tuba and the cimbasso - sometimes, in the middle of a piece. (An example of switching in the middle of a "classical" work, would be switching over to tuba - during the covered-by-others sustained pitches - to play the B-major section in "Ride of the Valkuries", after covering the 4th trombone part for everything previous.)

I possess one of those ‘dreaded’ Chinese cimbassos. An F Schiller that I’ve had for around 10 years. I had a tech friend work on it when first obtained, making it very playable. I’ve played it in symphony when certain Italian works called for one. Mainly Verdi scores. It is a pain to have both a tuba and cimbasso in the same concert setting, especially when space it tight. I have utilized it in brass choirs covering bass trombone parts. Also in a pops orchestra, again covering bass bone. The most unusual usage was in a trio setting. Bass trumpet, Wagner tuba, and the cimbasso. The numbers that worked best were Baroque scores, Bach especially. It is a kick to play but can easily be overpowering……

Whether it's the a rarely-seen genuine Rudolph Meinl with good valves or a Jinbao knockoff with sometimes clanky/sticky valves, the bore size is out of proportion (large) - and that defines that it requires a tremendous of energy to play the instrument as well as unnecessary intonation quirkiness (requiring the expenditure of even more energy).
A similar design with - simply - a smaller mouthpipe and smaller bore size even eliminates the need for a #1 slide trigger.

There have been quite a few times where I would have liked to have played cimbasso on one piece in a concert, but didn't go to the trouble, because they're just wasn't room on stage.
The K&M bassoon/bass clarinet stand that I have is probably 25 years old. The particular older design allows the turn into the bell to lay into a loose-fitting/adjustable-tilt cloth-coated U-channel, which allows for grabbing for a quick change, once the tuba is set down and out of the way.

I believe a cimbasso or bass trombone nearly always covers the fifth part in brass quintet Renaissance transcriptions better than a tuba. I just don't believe that most composers from that era thought of a bass line, melody, and inside voices, but - rather - thought of all voices as equally important. The thinner trombone type sound de-emphasizes the bottom voice.