TubaForum.net

Howdy. I'll start by saying this is not intended to slight anyone's excellent tuba, particularly if they're selling it...

With each high level pro turning to Eastman (it does seem to be mostly Eastman unless I'm mistaken?) does the second-hand value of high end horns take a hit, or are there enough people looking for whatever those horns bring to not make a difference?

I would have thought it would but what do you think or what's your experiece?

Thanks,
MP

The YamaYork will still command high prices. Probably the same with the Hirsbrunner (and Adams). I think the Melton/MW & B&S horns hold value okay still as well. In the case of the Melton and B&S horns, going to direct sales is likely more of a problem for resale than the Chinese made instruments.

I’m sure Eastman horns are competent and well built. However, it’s mainly in the USA where you see them “taking over”. I think some of that is due to marketing and sponsorship. For example, Yamaha in recent years has only offered a small discount on tubas when compared to “street pricing” from the larger dealers. I wonder if Buffet/Crampon (the owners of Melton/MW/B&S) are really incentivizing sponsored artists in the USA now? They seem to be doing so in Europe, but not nearly like they used to do in the USA.

When you're thinking about buying a tuba, do you look for high level pros who are using it? I wouldn't, but I'm not very representative of the market, I guess. If people are really influenced like that, maybe the manufacturers get their money's worth when they donate instruments to such performers.

For me ... my needs are going to be different from a professional's. Ironically, part of that is that most of them need to pinch their pennies tighter.

When i started looking for my Cc tuba, my teacher at that time told me to try as many different horns as i could. The goal is to find the horn that "fits" as you need it to. Irregaurdless of brand. The value of the horn is personal! If the market price of that horn matches your value (and budget) then you have a winner.

Secondly, what do you need the horn to do? Big orchestral, symphonic work? Quintet? Solo? Marching? Questions you need to know the answers to. "Fits"

As for Eastman, they are very nice "mass produced" instruments. Latest technology, tooling, etc.

Im not "anti-foreign." Im "pro-domestic." Which is difficult in this age. I really like the old H N White stuff.

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donn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:13 pmIf people are really influenced like that, maybe the manufacturers get their money's worth when they donate instruments to such performers.

Two things:

1. Rarely do sponsored players get a horn “donated”. There are cases, possibly like the Canadian Brass, where the instruments are free, but the vast majority of the time people are buying these horns, albeit at a discount the normal person won’t see.

2. These sponsorships absolutely do move instrumental sales. A large majority of tuba buyers are college students who are wanting to emulate certain qualities of certain players. As a result, they correlate players to instruments and assume the same will apply to them. It’s simple marketing.

donn wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:13 pm When you're thinking about buying a tuba, do you look for high level pros who are using it? I wouldn't, but I'm not very representative of the market, I guess. If people are really influenced like that, maybe the manufacturers get their money's worth when they donate instruments to such performers.

For me ... my needs are going to be different from a professional's. Ironically, part of that is that most of them need to pinch their pennies tighter.

I obviously wasn't clear.
I'm speculating that the pool of players interested in buying the much more expensive horns (let's be specific - Nirschl, Adams, Yamayork[!]) seems likely to have reduced since the introduction of the clearly capable far cheaper horns (Eastman, and to some extent, Wessex & Mack), therefore I'm wondering if a basic application of supply-and-demand might end up with lower sales prices of used high-price horns.

Top pros playing a certain brand and model horn only go to prove it is capable of doing the job and they like it well enough to play it. The fact they are on record as saying that a demonstrably cheaper horn is better for them than anything else available does carry weight for me.

Obviously this doesn't apply if you simply want something you've always coveted, and are prepared to pay a premium for that.

I think the demand for the high dollar 6/4 horns is about the same.

Where the $10,000 York copies have made a difference is in those same college kids I mentioned above. Instead of buying a $10-12k European 4/4 or 5/4 CC for general playing purposes, they spend $10k on an “orchestral tuba” because that’s what they think is required to be an orchestral player. (Note: I understand this is a general statement and therefore incorrect.) A survey of social media and what young college players are playing confirms this.

Also, your asking about a product made in a certain country. I believe the said certain country's business model is to steal tech, mass produce it, flood the market and drive everyone else out.

Seeing so many "top" people endorsing that product, and that product being available everywhere is proof.

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Two of my tubas, the MW 182 and the Nstar, were bought from well known pros who were moving to a different brand. The first 184 was rumored to have been played professionally by another very top level pro. Fantastic for me, and only because at the times I bought them, I had advertised I wanted those models. When you get the one the pro has picked out and modified to suit, you get a whopper of an instrument no matter what brand it is. Maybe I'll get my next one the same way.

Grumpikins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:13 pm Also, your asking about a product made in a certain country. I believe the said certain country's business model is to steal tech, mass produce it, flood the market and drive everyone else out.

Seeing so many "top" people endorsing that product, and that product being available everywhere is proof.

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Eastman are made in China like a lot of things, but their headquarters (tax etc!) is in California I believe.

You make many assumptions if you think pros playing a certain horn is 'proof' that they have been bought by a company. If that is what you're implying I'd say that's quite insulting to those players, unless you know the intricacies of any deals struck, which I doubt, and I certainly do not.

matt g wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:09 pm I think the demand for the high dollar 6/4 horns is about the same.

Where the $10,000 York copies have made a difference is in those same college kids I mentioned above. Instead of buying a $10-12k European 4/4 or 5/4 CC for general playing purposes, they spend $10k on an “orchestral tuba” because that’s what they think is required to be an orchestral player. (Note: I understand this is a general statement and therefore incorrect.) A survey of social media and what young college players are playing confirms this.

I agree that the main result of the introduction of these cheaper 6/4 Cs is that way more folk end up with very large horns that they likely don't need.

What don't agree on is that the market for the high end stuff can be as strong.
Put it this way -
10 years ago or so, if you wanted a 6/4 C York copy, what were your options? Nirschl, 2165 +variants, Hirsbrunner, Yamayork, plus a very occasional 345 or the mixed bag of cut horns.
All of these are expensive horns with the 345 being variable, and cut horns likely cheaper?

Back to today and we gave significantly cheaper horns being used in Cincinnati, Melbourne symphony orchs, plus occasional outings in CSO, Boston. Haven't military auditions also been won on these new breed of chesper horns?

We don't seem to agree but it seems to me the fact these horns A). Are available cheaply, and B). Are proven in world class ensembles, would diminish interest in those higher priced horns.

All interesting anyway!
MP

I'll add that I'm not against expensive instruments, nor am I pro cheaper stuff.

Peach wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:48 pm We don't seem to agree but it seems to me the fact these horns A). Are available cheaply, and B). Are proven in world class ensembles, would diminish interest in those higher priced horns.

All interesting anyway!
MP

I agree with A. I agree with the first part of B. I think that what will happen is that the price of expensive horns is just going to flatline for a while. It kinda took a dip back in 2020, I think, but things are askew now.

Peach wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:52 pm I'll add that I'm not against expensive instruments, nor am I pro cheaper stuff.

Leave it to me.

I’m pro cheaper stuff.

I think they have diminished- I also think those that have the German/Swiss-made horns are holding onto them more now than in the past. 4 years ago, you'd see 4 Thors on the used market, a bunch of Pt-6P's, etc. Now, with all the Chinese tubas, you don't see all that many European makes.

I will say, yes, the Chinese stuff has diminished prices, but I still firmly believe that if you were to buy a Chinese tuba for, let's say, $10,000, you instantly lose $2,000 should you decide to sell.

The European horns tend to still hold their value quite well. You pay 10 for a Thor, you'll be able to get 10 back for it down the road. They still hold their value. However, 4 years ago you might've paid 12 for a Thor.

The way the market is going, newer European makes from M-W and B&S are actually pretty solid deals brand new, now that they have that showroom. I'd still much rather buy one of those, pay a little more, but have a horn last a lifetime with no premature silver or lacquer wear or thin brass!

I may have come off wrong. The eastmans are very nice instruments, and the pros who play them are well deserving/earned thier positions.

I bought my son an eastman french horn last summer. But, i took him to dillon music and he played several horns that were in my price range for a teenager. The eastman "fit" him best. The Holton sounded great, but he had to fight for some notes to come out. Over 2 years, the school district had provided him with 3 brand new conns, all had manufacturing issues and required repair.

Im sorry if i sidetracked a little on this topic.

As for the topic, good quality horns will hold thier value.

Another side note. How many of todays top pros keep and play the same horn for years ? Aside from switching to other horns for specific purposes.

Anyway. I dont know why i got involved here. Just bored i guess. Or escaping from the daily mundane drudgery.... i should be practicing.

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sidebar:

I do not like Yamaha, I find yamarobot band directors annoying (spending the most possible tax money for "OK"-playing/soon-to-be-demolished instruments) and I suppose I compete with Eastman (the stuff I sell: much more limited selection, but a little bit better build...Eastman: the opposite)...

...but if I HAD TO own some sort of York-o-phone, I would find SOME WAY OR ANOTHER to purchase a Yamaha. The rest are all just too much work (as far as I'm concerned) to play in tune. That having been said, I'll NEVER need to own a(nother) York-o-phone, and I am epically nonplussed by all the other Yamaha tubas/euphoniums, so...

MAIN TOPIC (resale value)

The lower the original price, the lower the ARITHMETIC hit, when selling it off.

me...??
I love selling NEW stuff - because I don't have to fix it, but (other than forty years ago - when it was obvious that no other F tuba could touch the B&S ones - playability-wise...and no others have yet to have matched it - coming from communist East Germany, and got my for $1XXX with 6 rotors - NEW) ALWAYS let someone else take the "new cost" hit OR build my own. ...and I've had damn good luck with "build my own", even though I don't know what the Hell I'm doing.

Grumpikins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:45 pm I may have come off wrong. The eastmans are very nice instruments, and the pros who play them are well deserving/earned thier positions.

I bought my son an eastman french horn last summer. But, i took him to dillon music and he played several horns that were in my price range for a teenager. The eastman "fit" him best. The Holton sounded great, but he had to fight for some notes to come out. Over 2 years, the school district had provided him with 3 brand new conns, all had manufacturing issues and required repair.

Im sorry if i sidetracked a little on this topic.

As for the topic, good quality horns will hold thier value.

Another side note. How many of todays top pros keep and play the same horn for years ? Aside from switching to other horns for specific purposes.

Anyway. I dont know why i got involved here. Just bored i guess. Or escaping from the daily mundane drudgery.... i should be practicing.

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All good...!
I agree that pros do maybe switch main horns more than they used to. I think maybe players in general do?
My wife plays cello and she and her string-colleagues do not, as a rule, change instruments, but her cello is worth way more than my combined instruments...

What do we want?

Cheap stuff!

When do we want it?

NOW!

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:02 am What do we want?

Cheap stuff!

When do we want it?

NOW!

Indeed. The tuba world seems to be stampeding towards the Yugo's of tubas.

I could sell the Yugo's too, but it would make me feel weird to b.s. all the people who would write or call with complaints,
PLUS...(as I've clearly stated many times) I'm lazy...I would have to unbox each-and-every one, determine what's wrong with them, and get them (again: each and every one) working well enough to sell...and - somehow - without marring their finishes.

Besides everything stated in the previous paragraph, that stuff isn't good for me selling 'used', because a whole bunch of it only costs $1XXX (wholesale/new from China) whereas many end-users are paying (with epic retailer mark-ups) $4XXX-and-up for the "Yugo-quality" stuff and then (when offering it used for sale) are firm on their $3XXX-and-up used pricing.

again: The line of Asian imports I sell is concise (limited number of diverse models), but is made well enough so as I can ship it to customers without having to unbox and inspect any of it...even the double reeds (thank the Lord). The downsides are the somewhat pricing higher (than with the Yugo-grade stuff) which defines that (along with the limited diversity of models) it sells a bit slower.

There are w-a-y more factories (in China) than most people are aware...
...and even models - that sometimes appear as though they were made in the same place - are not.
Quality levels (again) range from "the seller has to fix every single one before hoping to sell it" to "the best imaginable". All of it costs less (dealer cost) than western world manufactured instruments. No one here is particularly interested in saxophones, but I've encountered a few saxophones - made in China (dealer cost $XXX) which offer amazingly/astonishingly good intonation. Saxophonists (and their teachers) - though - prefer to show off the expensive-make French/Japan/Germany name engraved on the bell. Further, they are very suspicious of saxophones that only cost $1XXX, as they don't trust their own judgment/evaluation skills.

bloke "I already have quite a bit of repair work to do, and that which is do is paid for by others, rather than 'free: in order to get this new thing sold'..."