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For purposes of educating myself about tuba history, is there anywhere that has what new model numbers correspond to the old PT numbers?

Here is my attempt to translate B&S and Hirsbrunner model numbers into (now-defunct) Custom Music importer model numbers. Please offer any corrections or additions.

B&S F Tubas
3099/2 = PT-8 (5v, true graduated "Symphonie" 17-21mm bore)
3100 = PT-9 (4+2, true graduated "Symphonie" bore)
3099/2/W = PT-10 (5v, flagship PT F tuba, 19-21mm bore)
3199 = PT-10P (5v piston)
3099/1/W = PT-11 (4+1 version of PT-10)
3100/W = PT-12 (4+2, 6v version of PT-10)
5099 = PT-15 (5v, large bell throat)
5100 = PT-16 (4+2, large bell throat)
4100/GI = Mel Culbertson Apollo (4+2, 19" bell, 6/4 size)

B&S CC Tubas
3097 = PT-3 (3/4 size, 16-1/2" bell)
3197 = PT-3P (piston version of above)
4096 = PT-4 (4/4 size, 17-3/4" bell)
4196 = PT-4P (piston version of above)
4097 = PT-20 (4/4 size, 18-3/4" bell)
4197 = PT-20P (piston version of above)
3098 = PT-6 (5/4 size, rotary valves)
3198 = PT-6P (piston version of above)
GR-41 = PT-606 (4/4+ size, York-inspired)
4098/GI = Mel Culbertson Neptune (BART)
5198/GI = Piston Neptune
4198 = PT-7P (BAT)

B&S BBb Tubas
3103 = PT-1
3301 = PT-2P (BBb version of 4197/PT-20P)
GR-51 = PT-605

Hirsbrunner CC Tubas
HBS 290 = HB-2 (rotary valve 4/4 CC)
HBS 390 = HB-2P (looped leadpipe 4/4 CC)
HBS 392 = HB-21 (short leadpipe 4/4 CC)
HBS 394 = HB-20 (short leadpipe 4/4 CC, med. bore, HBS 510 style rotor placement)
HBS 293 = HB-6 (rotary valve 5/4 CC)
HBS 510 = HB-50 (Yorkbrunner 6/4 CC)

Hirsbrunner F Tubas
HBS 288 = HB-8 (small rotary F)
HBS 289 = HB-9 (larger rotary F)
HBS 388 = HB-10 (small piston F)
HBS 389 = HB-12 (larger piston F)

Piston Neptune = 5198 GI

GR51 = PT-605
GR55 = [I don't think there's a PT-#]

I also remember a PT-18 F tuba... was that the Apollo?

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:19 pm Piston Neptune = 5198 GI

GR51 = PT-605
GR55 = [I don't think there's a PT-#]

I also remember a PT-18 F tuba... was that the Apollo?

Amended list.

I believe the PT-18 transformed into the MRP-F when it finally went into production.

There is also a difference in Bore size once you step past PT11, the PT12-18 (F tubas) start at 19mm instead of 17mm.

I guess my PT-5P would also be a 3198. 5/4 CC York copy

DouglasJB wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:45 pm There is also a difference in Bore size once you step past PT11, the PT12-18 (F tubas) start at 19mm instead of 17mm.

All B&S rotary F tubas except the 3099/2 (PT-8) and 3100 (PT-9) and their ilk have a graduated 19mm-21mm bore.

The 3099/2 and the 3100 feature the 17mm 5th(/6th) valve bore and the graduation from 17, 18, 19, 20, 21mm throughout valves 5/6-1-2-3-4.

The 3099/2/W (PT-10) and the other rotary F's have 19mm for valves 5/6, 1 and 2, 20mm for 3 and 21mm for 4.

I found this source elsewhere on the web:

W means wide bore ie: 19mm-21mm
no W means small bore ie: 17-21mm

/2 means the 5th valve lever is on the right side
/1 means the 5th valve lever is on the left side

They dropped that convention for the 5099/5100 models, which do feature the larger 19mm bore.

Tuba1153 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:03 pm I guess my PT-5P would also be a 3198. 5/4 CC York copy

It's probably similar. Does your 5P actually say 5P on the bell, or just the B&S logo/"Perantucci Model"?

Just says “B&S“ but it is a prototype. Purchased it new back in 1992.

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:05 pm All B&S rotary F tubas except the 3099/2 (PT-8) and 3100 (PT-9) and their ilk have a graduated 19mm-21mm bore.

So the early Miraphone 181 PT-10 look alike didn't go as far as copying the graduated valves.

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:05 pm All B&S rotary F tubas except the 3099/2 (PT-8) and 3100 (PT-9) and their ilk have a graduated 19mm-21mm bore.

So the early Miraphone 181 PT-10 look alike didn't go as far as copying the graduated valves.

Is it a straight bore?

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:42 pm

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 pm So the early Miraphone 181 PT-10 look alike didn't go as far as copying the graduated valves.

Is it a straight bore?

Had to double check. Yes, on this one, all 5 rotors are the same, and the same size as on a 188. The removable lead pipe is a little smaller as it enters the bottom of the 5th valve, but 5th valve tubing (top) and 4th valve tubing (bottom) are all the same. Leaving the bottom rotor, it's a little bigger (like a 188, but not as big a change), and the other side of the main tuning slide is bigger still (which the 188 doesn't bother with).

I might add the lesser-seen Hirsbrunner HBS-394 to this list, which is the HB-21-looking thing with the 5th valve in the same spot as the HB-50.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:41 am I might add the lesser-seen Hirsbrunner HBS-394 to this list, which is the HB-21-looking thing with the 5th valve in the same spot as the HB-50.

This was known as the HB-20, and I added it to my list as well as some Hirsbrunner F tubas.

B&S Eb Tuba
4194 = PT-22P (4/4 size, 4+1 piston, 17.5" bell)

The different Hirsbrunner numbers are not age-related, but are rather the factory model designations versus those added by the U.S. importer (Custom Music). All sorts of things were done in those days to make the officially imported models distinctive to identify them separately from the unofficially imported models.

I don't think the model HBS-193 was ever officially imported (or at least not catalogued as such) and doesn't seem to have been given an "HB-xxx" designation, but Hirsbrunner has made them (on special order) for many decades. I looked at and played one last weekend that had to have been dated from the 60's or 70's, and mine was made in the 90's.

That is largely true for the distinction between B&S factory numbers and the import model designations, but in that case, the import designations carried with it the implication that Mssrs. Parantoni and Tucci had some involvement in the design, at least in some details. (And I suspect they were the motivators for the revision of the traditional Symphonie to become the first PT-10, with the larger 19mm bore for valves 1, 5, and 6.) That said, the stated dimensions of the PT-9 (if you can actually find them stated anywhere) are indeed the same as on the old Symphonie models.

Likewise, I don't think the classic B&S/Weltklang/Sonora/Giardinelli/Meister Gerhard Schneider/etc. ad infinitum Modell 101 ever received a PT designation. The PT-1 refers to a later model (the 103) that is not such a direct derivative of the Alexander 163, the design for which was apparently brought from Alexander to Hess (the forerunner of B&S) by Herr Cromlein back in the 30's.

Rick "can't keep track of current B&S model designations even with a list" Denney