2+3 5th valve on an F tuba?

Mary Ann · Post by **Mary Ann** » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:48 pm

Has this ever been done? My old Miraphone 184 was the vintage that was 2+3 for the 5th valve, and I far prefer that to the more modern way of doing the 5th valve. I liked being able to use that 5th valve for Ab scale notes on the 184, and wonder if I would like an F tuba better if it had the same set-up for the Db scale. Like, get another MW 182 and get a 2+3 5th valve slide made for it (pipe dreams again, but maybe my pipe will be lit again sometime.)

bisontuba · Post by **bisontuba** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:08 am

My Frankentuba Cerveny F has the 2+3 5th valve...the more I use it, the better I like it...

the elephant · Post by **the elephant** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:43 am

My Mirafone 180 F had one of those, but a previous owner had it cut to a flat M2 for some reason.

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:04 am

It only requires a "pretty good" (ie. not some "master/wizard") repair-guy + a parts source (+ an ear) to build an alternate slide which offers the alternate length.

A few tubas (decades ago - when both lengths were still being installed on new instruments) featured two #5 circuit slides.

Robert Tucci · Post by **Robert Tucci** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:45 pm

Mary Ann,

Years ago a two-tone slide for the 5th valve was included with all five valve "B & S" PT-10 F-Tubas. Later this became an additional cost item. On such instruments, this worked very well for two reasons. 1/Some of the low notes could be played with one less valve and 2/, the slide added weight to the top of the instrument.

Bob Tucci

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:10 pm

E̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶5̶-̶v̶a̶l̶v̶e̶ ̶s̶y̶s̶t̶e̶m̶ Any system with any number of valves is going to feature some pitch (likely: numerous ones) that are more than a few cents off "center".

' delighted to see Mr. Robert Tucci here.

marccromme · Post by **marccromme** » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:28 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:10 pm E̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ ̶5̶-̶v̶a̶l̶v̶e̶ ̶s̶y̶s̶t̶e̶m̶ Any system with any number of valves is going to feature some pitch (likely: numerous ones) that are more than a few cents off "center".

' delighted to see Mr. Robert Tucci here.

Actually not, if you have 11 valves, each tuned one semitone longer than the former, you will never need to pres more than a single valve for ant desired tone down to the pedals.

Which is one valve more than most people have fingers ..

Post by **matt g** » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:32 pm

Dr. Fred Young’s approach solved this problem mathematically, but I’m not convinced it worked out as well as the ideal.

jonesbrass · Post by **jonesbrass** » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:38 pm

The previous owner of my Willson 3200 F had the 5the valve converted to a 2+3 slide. I changed it back to a flat whole step. My PT-10 has both a flat whole step and 2+3 slides. Most of the time I use the flat whole step on this tuba, too.

My vintage 188 had the 2+3 fifth valve set up, as did the 187 i played in the Army. It always seemed to make more sense on the contrabasses to me.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:37 am

Ruining your good joke by taking it seriously, even 11 valves would depend on every overtone - on each valve’s circuit - being in tune.

Bob Kolada · Post by **Bob Kolada** » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:30 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:04 am It only requires a "pretty good" (ie. not some "master/wizard") repair-guy + a parts source (+ an ear) to build an alternate slide which offers the alternate length.

A few tubas (decades ago - when both lengths were still being installed on new instruments) featured two #5 circuit slides.

We got a new rotary PT6 about a decade ago and it came with the long fifth slide. I don't remember if there was another in the case.

russiantuba · Post by **russiantuba** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:47 pm

My Miraphone 180F had this. I was used to the flat whole step on my CC, but it did give for more options as I look back.

Ironically, some Gronitz PF 125 tubas come with a tritone 5th valve. I am not sure the point, but the designer sure did prefer it. Eventually, you get to that age where one fingering set is enough

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:51 pm

Oh... F tubas.

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:30 pm

russiantuba wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:47 pmEventually, you get to that age where one fingering set is enough

Send me a fb message when I get there.

Mikelynch · Post by **Mikelynch** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:14 pm

Sax and several others tried a variety of fingering systems. Several included an independent valve for each necessary partial (open + 6). Those included 6 independent descending valves; and others, 3 descending valves, and 3 ascending valves. Though I have never played extant examples of either, I have to assume neither was an ideal solution. I have always guessed that the 3 ascending, and 3 descending, valves was an attempt to split the difference as to the varying taper ratios.

Mike

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 pm

I often have wished for an ascending valve on an instrument.

Post by **matt g** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:16 am

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 pm I often have wished for an ascending valve on an instrument.

The valve on that 2165/2265 you built could be flipped so that the small loop was removed.

The Getzen CB50 was clever in that the 5th valve could be flipped so that if the player was in “Bb” mode they could hit the fifth valve and have a “C” tuba for two pitches. For the two notes above the fundamental of the horn, this probably yielded pretty good pitch. Unfortunately, that’s one of the horns I never got to try.

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:19 pm

It seems that "flat" pitches on tubas often are not as "flat" as "sharp" pitches on tubas are "sharp".

That goofy 2165 valve would over-correct most all "flat" pitch problems on tubas, and it would be difficult to make a valve add any less than that valve's amount of length.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:02 am

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 pm I often have wished for an ascending valve on an instrument.

Tony Clements had Gronitz build him a CC / DD tuba which I think was based on a PCM. He was selling it some time back. Maybe still for sale?

IIRC, the bugle was in DD. The 5th valve put it in CC and was set to be an ascending valve. The 5th valve was engaged by default. You had a 4v CC with an ascending valve to DD.

bloke · Post by **bloke** » Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:10 am

cjk wrote: ↑Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:02 am
bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 pm I often have wished for an ascending valve on an instrument.
Tony Clements had Gronitz build him a CC / DD tuba which I think was based on a PCM. He was selling it some time back. Maybe still for sale?

IIRC, the bugle was in DD. The 5th valve put it in CC and was set to be an ascending valve. The 5th valve was engaged by default. You had a 4v CC with an ascending valve to DD.

so asc-D valve + 2nd valve might actually be a NOT-sharp D-flat...??

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