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Currently, I have both my Martin Medium Eb and a borrowed Martin Monster Eb at my house. Many thanks to @humBell for the opportunity to borrow it for a little while. l I wanted to show a few size-by-side photos to compare and contrast the two tubas.

* The Medium is from 1922, the Monster from 1915. Different engravings...
* Both are in great physical condition
* Both play very easily, and don't take much effort to make them "go". Solid intonation, no weird notes, etc.
* Both have a beautiful, classic, characteristic "old American tuba" sound. Even after a lifetime of playing German rotary tubas, I fully appreciate the sounds these tubas make.
* Both are 3 valves, so that low Ab just isn't there (I'm not a fan of false tones... these both can be made to play the Ab false tone... but that's just me)
* To attach arbitrary estimates to things, the Medium is about 15% easier to play than the Monster, and the Monster puts out over 15% more sound than the Medium.
* The characteristic Martin "square-ish" bows are more pronounced on the Monster than the Medium
* Medium takes a small-shank mouthpiece; the Monster is a bigger shank, but still seems a little less than a regular American shank size...?
* Medium is 32" tall and 17" bell -- Monster is 32.5" tall and 20.5" bell (<-- for comparison, the B&S Neptune that I had also had a 20.5" bell... huge!)
* Both have the same finish level (satin silver w/polished silver highlights and inside bell). The Medium has retained more of it's satin finish than the Monster.
* Little dents and pings all over both of them, but nothing large on either and no evidence of repairs on either. They've been well cared for, used plenty, and have a LOT of life left in them. Martin sure knew how to make a tuba.

As you can see, they are closely related to each other -- I think of them as big/little brothers. Playing characteristics directly attributed to physical differences, and both have their strengths and differences. Both are built very solidly but are not leaden.

Here are some dimly lit photos!

I'll have to take some better ones... The monster Eb is really a lot thicker n the bows and bell, but doesn't look so much bigger here.






Engraving on the Monster
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V


Engraving on the Medium
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V

Those are both nice-looking horns.

Gorgeousness!

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Love the big pancake bells on the monsters!

Pretty! I love the old American Monsters! I'm interested to hear how the intonation is

humBell's loaned Martin network stretches from New England to the upper Midwest!

arp "a helicon here" thark

Kind of a tuba Johnny Appleseed, roaming this great country carrying tubas.

As for taking better pictures - it's probably no mystery to anyone, but to take a good picture of a tuba, you have to back off a ways. Most lenses (i.e., your cellular phone) present a pretty wide angle of view, and anywhere near the corners, things will be effectively distorted since you never view the image from the corresponding distance. Find a place where you can be far enough away that the subject is at most half the image, and crop off the excess later - there will still be more image data than you have any use for.

Awe shucks!

(and now i got the Disney Dennis Day lyrics stuck in my head "There's a lot of work out there to do, oh, there's a lot of work to do")

I know @bort2.0 said that it has solid intonation, but just like @Sousaswag mentioned I am curious to how good or bad it really is. Seeing as they say old large American Eb tuba designs where wonky. And I welcome more pictures if you or @humBell
have them! And if only someone can get in contact with an owner of a Hirsbrunner HBS 688 Eb tuba and post pictures of that extremely rare tuba...

Well, I'll say this... I'm not a guy who sits in front of a tuner, or can tell you how many cents sharp or flat whatever partial is... And I'm not a slide puller (for sure, not on a top-action horn). I just play so it sounds good, and I think it's easy enough to hear what's right and what's way off. In an ensemble, even easier to hear what you need to do.

Anyway, neither of these tubas seem to need much attention to intonation, beyond what you'd normally expect from a 3-valve instrument, or from whatever mathematically happens with valve slide lengths.

I've tried some way problematic tubas before, and these sure ain't in that category.

I would also say i am sufficiently wonky in my own intonation i am hesitant to blame a tuba. I would say that with a larger mouthpiece on a larger tuba i have more trouble supporting the upper register (this being above the staff) but also that is mostly me.

Martins though do feel like less effort over all is needed to adapt.

And sorry for my lack of the pictures... Ya know, perhaps i should do something about that.

A few slightly better photos... When I have a chance and when the weather improves a bit, I'll try to get some outdoor or at least naturally lighted photos.

IMO, a wonderfully proportioned horn, and very fun to play. Valves are extremely smooth and quick, running on lamp oil.


Much larger, but basically the same height and great ergonomics. It is pure joy to play this tuba!


Hard to photograph, but the satin silver finish is easily visible on the medium...


...but barely noticeable on the monster. If you get your eyes way up to it, you can see evidence of the sandblasting, but it's largely been smoothed out(?). Some of the larger inner branches are more visible satin finished, though. For both horns, what they must have looked like when brand new!

The squarish Martin bottom bows always make me smile. Those seem like they were specific to Martin. I've wondered why they did that, whether it was intentional or a result of the particular machinery they had or what? I also wonder how round or not they actually are.

cjk wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 10:13 am The squarish Martin bottom bows always make me smile. Those seem like they were specific to Martin. I've wondered why they did that, whether it was intentional or a result of the particular machinery they had or what? I also wonder how round or not they actually are.

The bottom bow IS as squarish as it appears in the most recent photos. I think silver-plated tubas don't always show their dimensionality well in photos, and when the light isn't fully reflected, they look more round and normal... but in real life, they're quite square. Top bows are a little squarish... but it's really a feature of the bottom bow. Some of the valve slides are squarish, too, but that seems less unusual.

My best guess is that it's a solution to maintain the desired taper, and also to accommodate a wider bell flare without increasing the overall height of the tuba... Look at the Monster Eb... the bottom ferrule seems a mile away from the valve block, but then the bell is braced to the top bow. If the bottom bow was more rounded, it would have to extend farther down before curving back up... and that's a dramatic change to height, taper, etc... I'm sure it's no accident that it is the way it is... but from ferrule to ferrule, I'm not sure I see another way to get from the branches to the bell, with that taper, with that amount of space, with a rounded bow.

Or, it's just to make it comfortable in your lap. And they got lucky that it works well acoustically.

Thank you all for the extra photos and extra information. I appreciate it immensely!

So do you think someone could retrofit a 6 rotor valve block on a Medium like this?

Beautiful horns! I've owned 2 small Conn Eb's and 1 Giant but not at the same time, though the Giant and my 'medium' King Eb overlapped. The first small Conn played fantastically, 6th partial was a little high but that was it and I could bulldoze air through it. I still have the second one, it doesn't play as well and feels a lot more delicate. The Giant played as well as you might expect. The medium King (JC Sherman has a small one with a fixed recording bell that looks like an American baritone) plays awesome and has a great sound and a lot of guts. Intonation is just bad enough to not play in a group unfortunately. Flat F, sharp Eb and D and low D is flat. Low Eb was flat until I somehow bumped it up. I have an Altieri Yamaha 621 bag for it for size reference.

TubātōTubŏtō wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:41 pm So do you think someone could retrofit a 6 rotor valve block on a Medium like this?

If it was in bad shape, I would consider experimenting with it. I've also heard suggestions of getting an old King 2341 valve block and cutting the slides WAY down and patching that in, and benefit from a larger bore and 4 valves.

Honestly, I think a 4th valve would be the best overall change to the horn, but again, it's so nice as-is, I'm hesitant to do much to it. Lots of tradeoffs and non-ideal things about it, but it would be a shame to ruin it on the chance that I could make it into something that it isn't.

I *could* have a 4th valve grafted on to it in-line... but risks/returns are not all that favorable. Particularly considering the cost. Another idea would be adding a 4th rotor somewhere, and trying to make that right-thumb actuated... which would be weird, but more possible and maybe less intrusive if there's room for everything.

Adding a 4th to the Monster would be easier, putting a 4th rotor somewhere in-line and in the rear of the horn sort of like those add-on 5th valves Yamaha briefly made for the Yamaha 381 Eb and the euphs...

But for both of these, I think they're sort of in tuba purgatory... too nice to make major modifications, but their initial design puts them in a position to truly benefit from major modifications... the solution appears to be never playing low Ab or below.

Crazy idea but what fabricating a new main tuning slide with a rotary valve in it? The linkage has to be adjustable but it might work. Maybe even flexible tubes if you don't want the entire assembly to be moving up or down too. Would look a bit strange though. But at least the original slide and horn would be perfectly intact.

OR

Have 2 main tuning slides with a rotor valve in-between them.

bort2.0 wrote:

TubātōTubŏtō wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:41 pm So do you think someone could retrofit a 6 rotor valve block on a Medium like this?

If it was in bad shape, I would consider experimenting with it. I've also heard suggestions of getting an old King 2341 valve block and cutting the slides WAY down and patching that in, and benefit from a larger bore and 4 valves.

Honestly, I think a 4th valve would be the best overall change to the horn, but again, it's so nice as-is, I'm hesitant to do much to it. Lots of tradeoffs and non-ideal things about it, but it would be a shame to ruin it on the chance that I could make it into something that it isn't.

I *could* have a 4th valve grafted on to it in-line... but risks/returns are not all that favorable. Particularly considering the cost. Another idea would be adding a 4th rotor somewhere, and trying to make that right-thumb actuated... which would be weird, but more possible and maybe less intrusive if there's room for everything.

Adding a 4th to the Monster would be easier, putting a 4th rotor somewhere in-line and in the rear of the horn sort of like those add-on 5th valves Yamaha briefly made for the Yamaha 381 Eb and the euphs...

But for both of these, I think they're sort of in tuba purgatory... too nice to make major modifications, but their initial design puts them in a position to truly benefit from major modifications... the solution appears to be never playing low Ab or below.

Martin Wilk seemed to be fond of these tubas and offered to build me a 4 or 5 valve version. I already have my little York master and no budget for another but his work on my sousaphone was impressive. I’m pretty sure he could add a 4th and it would look factory.


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