The quest to find a 5/4 version of a 188

[bort2.0]

This is in response to the post by @Pakins51, who said he had once had a nice 188, but moved on because he wanted something a little larger... I spent a lot of time on this myself, and wanted to share my journey.

Spoiler alert -- I'm not sure if I ran out of money or motivation first, but I never got there.

I bought a GREAT mid-1980s Miraphone 188 (gold brass/Anniversary Edition) in 2011 from Dillon Music. Matt thought it was an incredible tuba, and he was right.

I used it for several years in NYC... playing in orchestras, it was EXCELLENT... more than enough sound, great amount of presence, projection, and cut through the ensemble when you wanted it. Trombones loved it. One of the French Horn players was over the top about it. Good times.

Playing in wind bands, it was... alright. Still the same great horn, but for the sheer volume and style of playing (louder, loudest, loudest+), it was difficult to make the tuba do what I needed it to do -- I was just pushing it too hard and close to the max, too often. I compare it to driving fast in a car... any car will go 80 mph. A car with a smaller engine will take more pushing to get up to that speed, and once you're there, you know there's not a whole lot beyond there to go faster if you wanted, or to feel comfortable with even where you are. It shakes, it sounds loud, it's harder to control... Compared against something with a much larger engine, you'll notice right away that to get to the same 80mph speed, it gets there more quickly, quietly, doesn't vibrate... and it's easier to control, nice and smooth, and you know that if you wanted more, there's plenty more to be had.

I think I was doing 30% orchestra and 70% wind band, so I made the difficult choice to leave the 188 behind and find something one click larger.

"What's like a Miraphone 188 but 1 size larger?" This is what I tried, and although I'll give negative points about each, they were ALL really good tubas, and the future owners all remarked about just how good they were and how well they played. I don't buy or accept crappy tubas.

1) First stop was a Rudy Meinl 4/4 CC. This was a really nice tuba, and the current owner likes it a lot too (but I believe is selling it soon?). Great sound, best build quality, all around a solid player (none of the intonation issues that people around here talk about). Maybe it was built late enough to avoid all that. Biggest issue was player maintenance -- if I played daily, it was glorious. If I played weekly (the reality of being a busy amateur/work/grad school/life), it was punishing. Took some time to get reacclimated with it, and then it was fine. But unlike other tubas I've had, it wasn't grab and go without putting in your dues. Physically about the same as the 188, maybe 10% more sound. A big 4/4 but not a 5/4 tuba. I sold it because I wanted more "more" than the tuba could offer.

2) Traded the Rudy for a B&S Neptune. Holy cow, was this thing a great looking tuba or what. Played VERY easily, and made a really nice sound. One funky note (low D), but perhaps due to a dent in the 4th valve tubing. It just wasn't so easy to center, but it was there. Valves were like a toy they were so free and smooth. And again, just a gorgeous tuba. Biggest problem was that for as large as it was physically, the sound output didn't really match. Looks like a 6/4, but output more like a 5/4... ish.. The tuba was nearly impossible to fit in my car, and that was a huge issue too. But the enormous bell flare made this look and seem like it wanted to be a 6/4 tuba, with all the disadvantages of physical size, but without a 6/4 sound. Highly flexible sound that could be big or small and that was nice, but overall, just not IT for me.

3) Traded the Neptune for a rotary Willson 3050RZ. OMG, this was a tank and I loved it. Smaller physically than the Neptune, but every bit as much output, and likely more. Once you get past the learning curve of the heavyweight brass and the lack of player feedback, this thing was search and destroy. Even at TubaChristmas and the disaster of 100+ tubas in an echo chamber, when I stepped on the gas I felt like it was burying everything in earshot. Oh what fun...! Build quality was better than the Rudy, and just a spectacular instrument to behold. Really easy to play, really easy to get around all registers, solid intonation, etc... this tuba had it all, but it had horrible ergonomics. The rotor section felt several inches higher than it should have been, and caused a lot of pain to try and contort my arm/hand to play it. 5th valve lever was an inhuman distance from where my thumb actually wanted to naturally be. That was a hard one to let go, because the sound, playability, and ease of output made this an ideal example to me of what a 5/4 tuba IS and should be. But damn, that was just a train wreck of ergonomics. Also was close to 26 pounds, and a real back breaker to haul around. I could have handled that, and could have spent $,$$$ to have the entire valve section reworked like Dave Amason did with his 3050RZ about 15-20 years ago... but I wasn't interested or able to put the $ and time into that.

4) Sold the Willson and bought a B&S PT-7p. This was a cool tuba too, and not really on the radar for most people -- partially because not many were made, and also because some of the ones that were made weren't the best. Chalk that up to B&S not making many though, and not going through enough R&D or production cycles to get where it was going. But the one I had was a real winner. The marketing/concept of the PT-7 was that it was a piston CC tuba built to elicit the sound of a rotary Kaiser BBb tuba. In form, it was basically like the Neptune, but with a different bottom bow and bell, which were made with some ancient mandrels for some long-ago Kaiser BBb. A large bell, but only 19" in diameter, which was a million times more focused and better than the Neptune. The PT-7 is also very similar to the piston Neptune, but there are differences... and speaking of R&D, once Culbertson designed the piston Neptune, nothing changed in the Neptune design... but the PT-7 did see incremental updates and advancements to improve the horn in later models -- the piston Neptune missed out on that, and still carried the 20.5" bell. For this tuba, it looked, felt, and sounded like a 6/4 tuba, just not a York-style 6/4 tuba, and maybe not like a Kaiser BBb either. Some people said that the 7 had sort of an identity crisis... not a York style, not a Kaiser style... so what is it? I loved the sound and how it played... but again, ergonomics. The valves seemed too far from the bell on the horn, and I had to reach WAY far to the other side, which made my arm, shoulder, and elbow hurt, even if I used a playing stand. No-go... which sucked, because it was quite an ordeal buying this tuba, having it overhauled, etc... Oh, and talk about a horn that could bury everything in sight... with ease, maybe even moreso than the Willson.

5) Traded the PT-7 for an older handmade rotary PT-6. I need to pause for a moment to wipe a tear, and pour out some valve oil in tribute to this departed friend. This was the epitome of a 5/4 tuba, and the endgame for my quest of a 188 plus "more" All the good things about everything above, in a package that was easy to hold, outrageously easy to play, pretty to look at, etc... and as an older handmade model, it was also quite light and easy to transport. Likely the best tuba I've owned, just ridiculously good, and made me sound way better than I am. I sold it, because I needed to raise money for putting a down payment on a home purchase. It was a good idea at the time, and probably still the most practical choice (did I **need** to own a tuba that cost that much $, even if it was the best ever?). Nobody asked me to sell it, and the choice was all mine... but I seriously wish I'd have held onto that tuba for much, much longer.

After that, things got messy and off-track.

6) After selling the PT-6, I had enough left over to buy "something," and a nice looking B&S PT-606 was on the market for a really good price. I bought it... a nice-enough tuba, and was really quite pretty to look at. But in terms of how it played, for me, it was forgettable. NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, except that it was just a complete mismatch of tuba and player. I sold that one pretty quickly.

7) Then I bought a REALLY REALLY nice Alexander 163 CC. It was nearly spotless, gleaming silver plate, and after going through Lee Stofer's shop (where he did VERY little to prepare it), it was virtually a new tuba. In all ways, an excellent tuba. I think this is what all 4/4 rotary CC tubas aspire to be, but never felt like this had the 5/4 oomph and presence that I was led to believe. However, this was during Covid lockdown times, and it wasn't getting any use... and I wasn't playing much at all, and certainly not in any groups. Maybe I just never gave it a fair chance to show its stuff in performance/rehearsal situations. I also really didn't like that it was a 4-valve CC, and wasn't so accepting of the extra work needed to handle that. To top it all off, I met someone through the board who had a strong personal connection to the horn, and we worked out a sale/trade that got the horn to him and some other stuff to me... which didn't get me much closer to the 188 thing.

8) I then had a Besson 983 Eb (sweet horn, but I sold quickly and never planned to keep it) and an old Rudy Meinl 5/4 BBb. The Rudy 5/4 needed work from Lee Stofer, and when I got it back it was just a mind-blowing tuba. This was the 6/4 Kaiser BBb style sound that is unmatched by anything else. Nothing bad to say about it, except that you'd better not be recovering from Covid while trying to play it. I nearly passed out, and that was about the only time in my life I've ever felt lightheaded or anything from playing the tuba. Sold it because I needed $, but also because I didn't want to get too attached to it and find out a few years later that I couldn't physically keep up with it. Both turned out to be idiot reasons, and while I'm not sure it was THE tuba to last me long-term through my playing days, it was probably the most fun and satisfying BIG sound that I remember making from a tuba.

Okay... that's the history....

If I had the $ and could pick something from the list:

* I'd buy an older PT-6 rotary, hands-down. To me, this is THE definitive 5/4 tuba in all ways. It might be more like 1.5 clicks larger than the 188, but for me, this is what my brain had been wanting all along. Definitely not 4/4, and definitely not 6/4.
* If Willson could get their $#@! together and make ergonomic rotary valves, I'd love to give one another shot.

Other thoughts:
* A Rudy 5/4 CC would be a nice thing to try... it's been many years since I've tested one, but I think if the Neptune is too big, the big Rudy isn't going to help. It's effectively a 6/4.
* The MRP has been high on my list to try as well, but I've never had the chance. As I understand it, it's sort of like a more dialed-in version of the PT-6, but not a derivative of the PT-6. Like the PT-7, it was initially marketed as being the large German BBb sound, in a CC tuba. It's a big 5/4, and more than 1 size up from the 188.
* The Tuono is worth a try too. It's been like 10 years for me, but I remember it being fine, and uncomfortable to hold (mouthpiece was way high for me). I also recall that the Tuono, Thor, and PT-6 that I tried side by side were all REALLY similar to each other, in a disappointing sort of "why do these 3 things just sound like me?" kind of way. All are 5/4 tubas.
* Miraphone Bruckner is probably the clearest "1 size bigger than a 188" option that you'll find. I've tried a few, and they were everything you want and expect from a Miraphone. I think the PT-6 is larger in sound output than the Bruckner, but maybe that's subjective. I'd consider the Bruckner to be "a little larger than the 188" and like 4.5/4. It's a really, really nice tuba.

Other other thoughts:
* Meinl Weston 2155 -- esp with the 45SLP leadpipe, these are very nice, clear, and big-ish playing tubas. Piston tuba, but not tubby. I like them a lot
* Meinl Weston 2000 -- basically like the best 2155 you can find, but handmade, and more expensive. I like these a lot too, but very rare.
* Gronitz PCM -- cool horns, but I haven't had one in my hands, there have been a few for sale in the last year or so.
* Hirsbrunner something or another -- I forget which one people like... but the rotary or piston ones are pretty good, with a few flaws that are present in some more than others. But size-wise, I'd say its 188+
* I generally stay away from Cerveny tubas. Some people love them. I'm indifferent, and there are too many choices for me to go with Cerveny. I recently tried a newer 5/4 CC, and thought it was a pretty nice tuba. Not my all-time fave, but I did like it.

[Sousaswag]

I also alluded to this in the other post:

I'd also choose a Pt-6, if sticking to ROTARY instruments only. For the same reasons as bort details. Really good tubas that don't cost $XX,XXX like the MRP's do. They are so, so easy to play. And don't get me wrong, I liked the MRP. However, I didn't feel bad about selling it. Not like my Thor. I still think about that horn from time to time.

Anyway, for ME and how I play and how ergonomics are, I will own another Thor someday. I'm not sure I could bring myself to sell this HB right now, or even in a year, but the 5450 models are by-and-large my favorite tubas available. I prefer the large bell Thor to the small one, but the Tuono is also a wonderful horn. They have the best intonation of any horn that I've owned, and the best response in every register. If you're not opposed to pistons, I'd pick the Thor.

I've owned a LOT over the last few years:

Miraphone 1293- Great horn. Ergonomics didn't work as well.

Thor- THE best. Probably shouldn't have sold it, but I am dumb. Will own another.

MRP- Great horn. Rotors and I don't get along and I don't play enough to justify it.

HB2P- Love. Stiffer low register, not as point and shoot as the 5450, but there's just something about it. Keeper, daily driver.

MW 2141 Eb- Intonation nightmare.

Eastman 864 F- Nice playing, good pitch, bad rotor linkage.

Willson 3200 F- A little pitchy, but a nice player. Might keep it, might sell it. Not sure. I don't play it a whole lot but I like to have it.

[tubanh84]

I have very little to add to the above. But I do have back-to-back experience with a Rudy 5/4 and (glorious) PT6 because I owned both for a few months at one point.

I loved my Rudy. I did everything on it, from Gliere 3 to Etre ou n'est pas etre.

But then I got the PT6. Played it for a while. Then went back to the Rudy, then back to the PT6, etc...Once I'd played the PT6, the Rudy lost its luster. The PT6 was smaller, easier to play, and had a more colorful sound. Back to back, the Rudy was enormous, very dark, and incredibly onerous to play. The feeling I keep in my body is how, after the PT6 for a few weeks, the Rudy felt like it was sucking the air out of me.

That's not to trash Rudy 5/4 CC's. When it was my main horn, I was in shape to play it and I loved every minute of it. It was one of those horns that is hard to put down at the end of a practice session. There's always one more thing you wanted to do on it. And several great players have created some amazing performances with them.

But if I were a professional and playing every day, the efficiency (effort-to-product ratio) of the PT6 would win out every time.

[LargeTuba]

I’ve also owned a bunch of tubas in the last year. Maybe it’s coming out of Covid?? I’m not sure.

Wessex Champion Eb
TM Koeder Piston Bb
Besson Comp Eb
Yamaha Yeb-321
ZO F tuba
Wessex York
Wisemann 900
Pt-7p
Holton 6/4 Factory Cc

[bort2.0]

Did I know about the Holton factory 6/4 CC? How cool is THAT!

[arpthark]

The PT-6 is just a really excellent tuba. I sold mine after I quit the audition circuit and changed career paths.

Mine was silver plated from 1996, Jon Voth's old tuba. I also had the long fifth valve slide for it as an optional add-on. It was wonderful. I bought it in 2012 for, I want to say, $7500 because I drove to DC to pick it up from Jon.

If I ever went back to a larger tuba from my 4/4 CC, it would be something like a PT-6. It just took a lot of work on my end to keep the results consistent, which I don't encounter as much with the Eastman 832.

[LargeTuba]

Did I know about the Holton factory 6/4 CC? How cool is THAT!

It’s a pretty sweet horn! Just got it.

It was allegedly owned by Arnold Jackobs, there’s a couple of photos I have of him playing my horn in important places.

[bloke]

Not that I would buy one, but wouldn't this obviously be an MRP (C)...??

[LargeTuba]

Not that I would buy one, but wouldn't this obviously be an MRP (C)...??

The Mrp-C is touch bigger than the pt-6. In the most recent catalogues it’s listed as a 6/4. It’s a big horn.

[bloke]

Not that I would buy one, but wouldn't this obviously be an MRP (C)...??

The Mrp-C is touch bigger than the pt-6. In the most recent catalogues it’s listed as a 6/4. It’s a big horn.

... but MRP (C) is more focused sounding (ie. what people might associate with a 5/4 type of sound) than a pt6, at least than the piston version of the pd6, yes?

bloke "Now look what I've done; I've triggered all the pt6p owners. "

[bort2.0]

Did I know about the Holton factory 6/4 CC? How cool is THAT!

It’s a pretty sweet horn! Just got it.

It was allegedly owned by Arnold Jackobs, there’s a couple of photos I have of him playing my horn in important places.

New thread...?!

[PlayTheTuba]

The 5/4 Rudy CC is a bit smaller than the VMI Neptune. Way different sound also, possibly too far the other way. My chops were at peak when I borrowed one and I owned a fantastic 188 at the time. I felt it was super easy to play and pitch was good. Good tubas. Now that I'm thinking about it, I could still get a nice ring of edge around the core when being pushed hard. I only had it for a week, but it was fun.

I've not been a fan of either flavor of the PT-6. Given my playing and experience, the low end has a bit more "crunch" than the middle and high registers using the same approach, i.e. they feel a bit uneven.

Never played a Tuono, but I'm a fan of the MW/Melton 2155/2000/5450 evolution of 4/4+ tubas. I feel these kinda nail the big 4/4 sound and are even across the horn in terms of timbre. If the Tuono does this with rotary valves, and those are your jam, then I'd have that on a short list.

My opinion is that what you're seeking doesn't really exist. I get where you're headed, but I understand why your search hasn't ended. Good luck on the journey. My experience has been a bit similar.

I played a Matt Walters built horn when I was in my early 20s. Was amazed by the shear ease of playability coupled with the compact layout coupled with solid output. Bought one of his creations in 2019 (in my mid 40s) to get back into playing and it's great.

I played a 2165 when I was 19. Loved it. Finally bought one in 2020 when one came available for a decent price. Super happy.

Played an early and old B&S F (the fourth valve was like a 2-3 combo) and was amazed at the sound. Dunno if I'll ever find something like that, but when my desire and interest finally coalesce, maybe I'll hunt for a similar F?

I'm also a fan of the 2155, but given I've somewhat bracketed that size horn with what I currently own, there's no rush to seek out one of those. However, those are great tubas. Probably budget MAW valves for one if I bought it.

[bort2.0]

Thank you everyone for adding your thoughts to this post. I think a lot of us are in agreement with a lot of things here, including that there is no real answer to the question of what is like a 188 but bigger.

I am effectively out of the game right now, and probably will be for a few more years to come... at least. Perhaps a more definitive answer will surface during that time. Yeah right

[matt g]

A thought...

If you could run across an Alex 164 in C, that might fit the bill in terms of being a 188 in 5/4 sound. Doubtful on the pitch.

[arpthark]

@bort2.0, you need to talk to Miraphone and help them design a 189. Get Christian Niedermayer on the phone, stat!

[PlayTheTuba]

Wouldn't the solution be just getting a different bell for the 188? Like what @iiipopes did with a Miraphone 186 and had a Besson bell installed? Creating the Bessophone...

@arpthark is absolutely correct, @bort2.0 there's no time to waste, make the dreams of many Tubists come true!!

[bort2.0]

A thought...

If you could run across an Alex 164 in C, that might fit the bill in terms of being a 188 in 5/4 sound. Doubtful on the pitch.

A few years ago, I was very very close to buying the 164 that Ted Cox has now. I forget why it fell through, but mostly logistics or something. I would have loved to try it... But I think I glad I didn't buy it.

[bort2.0]

@bort2.0, you need to talk to Miraphone and help them design a 189. Get Christian Niedermayer on the phone, stat!

This reminds me... The Miraphone 190 CC was definitely NOT the solution to the original question when I tried a brand new one at Dillon many years ago. I'm not saying it was a bad horn... But it wasn't a 188+2... It was a totally different thing.

As for a 188 with a bigger bell... Oof, I don't think that's a good idea at all. As if the bell is the problem? I think leave the 188 alone, it's a solid tuba.

What I really wish they would do is take the Hagen series and make a CC version. I'd like to think that a 496 CC would be absolute bliss.

[Sousaswag]

I think the new Alex 163 might be our answer. I’ve never played one, but I’d LOVE to. I’m sure they’re worth it. They sure are pretty!

[bort2.0]

The 163 was a frequent suggestion for me as well. The Alex that I had was a very fine tuba, indeed. Bigger than a 188? Hrmm... Not sure about that. Maybe doesn't break up as quickly, but not sure it's "bigger." In my eyes, it's like the best 4/4 tuba sound you can get, and when you push harder it keeps going.

I think there's a difference between quantity of sound and bigness of sound.

If you're in a situation where a solid 4/4 can cut and project well (like in orchestra), I'm sure it's fantastic.

If you're in a (normal/usual) Shirt show band, where everything is loud loud loud, I think it's going to be the same amount of work and same issue as the 188. I didn't need louder, I needed "bigger."