School me on piston valves- materials and construction

[DonO.]

I will tell you the things I am aware of, then you can add or correct if need be. The “classic” piston valves are nickel plated brass, correct? My King has these. And eventually the plating wears off so that you can see the brass underneath. Valves in that shape may need to be re-plated, or maybe not if they maintain compression. Thicker oil can help delay the expensive re-plating by filling gaps and helping maintain compression. My King’s valves still look brand new, just wondering what to expect down the road.

Then there are “monel” valves. My Kanstul has those. They don’t look plated to me, the silver-colored part seems rather thick. Would this be some kind of sleeve over brass, or is the whole thing solid monel? My research tells me that monel is an alloy of nickel and copper with some other other trace metals included. Something like 60/40 nickel/copper? And it’s supposedly harder than stainless steel. How is that possible with such a high percentage of soft metal like copper? And do these valves ever need to be re-plated, or can they be?

Then there are “stainless steel” valves. The VMI euphonium I used to have had these. Solid stainless steel, or some kind of sleeve over brass? And same questions about wear. Do they ever need re-plated? Or can they be?

Thank you for your answers, and please excuse my ignorance. This is stuff I think I should have learned by now but just haven’t yet.

[bloke]

Take a look at your King pistons one more time and decide if the base metal is actually nickel silver, rather than yellow brass.

I've seen some nickel plated pistons with yellow brass base metal, but most are nickel silver base metal.

One additional type of piston is raw nickel silver. This was all most all legacy pistons from the better part of a century ago, and possibly still a few cheap instruments are made this way.

[the elephant]

Yes, I agree. In my experience, it seems that most (even quite old valves) were nickel silver tubes milled out, with brass tunnels silver brazed into place. Once all the matching was done they were plated with nickel and then hand-fit to the cases.

Monel is a commercial name for a very specific alloy of a nickel-silver-like metal. It has less than 60% copper, so it is not officially a copper alloy like nickel silver. It has some iron and other stuff in it. It was used in WWII by the Wehrmacht to make the dog tags worn by soldiers. I think our USMC also used it for the same purpose at that time. Monel has a lot of industrial uses, and it was popular as a piston material for some years. It has sort of lost favor over time to stainless steel. I think Monel has issues with catching, and it is very expensive. I think certain alloys of SS are much less expensive and much easier to work with, and they do not tend to hang or catch in a brass sleeve like Monel is wont to do.

Neither Monel nor stainless valves are plated, so you can see the yellow brass of the tunnels. Plated nickel silver was fully plated, meaning the brass tunnels were, too.

>>>interesting…<<<

[JRaymo]

I until recently owned a Holton helicon from around 1924. The valves were not plated with anything and were some type of copper/bronze alloy? They were copper in color and were still pretty tight. I think Holton was the only one who used this and I don’t know a lot about them. Seemed to work ok.


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[bloke]

I have seen some very old pistons which were either very heavily copper clad or solid copper. Of course they feel very smooth but using them without oil even once is a very bad idea.

I specifically recall a junior-sized King made sousaphone with the name Gladiator which featured this type of pistons.

[arpthark]

I until recently owned a Holton helicon from around 1924. The valves were not plated with anything and were some type of copper/bronze alloy? They were copper in color and were still pretty tight. I think Holton was the only one who used this and I don’t know a lot about them. Seemed to work ok.


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A friend has a Holton Collegiate euphonium (big thing!) from around the same era that also features copper-clad valves or something similar, as you've said.

[BopEuph]

Interesting, because I have a Holton 122 from 1924 with plated valves (which are from 1912). I don't know if they were plated at some point after one of its very likely restorations while in possession at the high school I liberated it from, but it was very much not raw brass when I got it. I just had it replated recently, though.

[JRaymo]

Interesting, because I have a Holton 122 from 1924 with plated valves (which are from 1912). I don't know if they were plated at some point after one of its very likely restorations while in possession at the high school I liberated it from, but it was very much not raw brass when I got it. I just had it replated recently, though.

Could have been rebuilt. I’ve seen a couple of these helicons. I had one from about 1924 and there was one that came up for sale local from around 1911. I went to look at that one because I had the idea to buy it and make one 4 valve out of the two horns. That one also had the valves without plating.


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[LargeTuba]

In my limited experience, I have found non-stainless valves way more comfortable to play than stainless.

[bloke]

It has a great deal to do with fit (okay, valve cleanliness) and spring tension. Some people say it has to do with the angle of the valves but that never seems to bother me.

The stainless steel pistons on the C tuba I just surrendered were luxurious.

[BopEuph]

Could have been rebuilt.

Yeah, it is pretty likely. The horn's lacquer is in pretty great shape for being a century old, so it's had at least a relacquering job in the recent past, so I'd imagine a rebuild was a part of this horn's history, too.

[tofu]

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[WC8KCY]

I wonder if back in the day if lots of horns were bought mail order (especially out in rural areas) and a buyer just kept it as returning was too much an ordeal so they just stuck it in the attic. I was glad I bought it so cheap. Even tripled my money when I sold it.

If you take a look at the old instrument catalogs on https://saxophone.org/museum/publications, you'll find that several makes were once sold to consumers direct from the factory in the 1800s and early 1900s. Holton, Buescher, and Pan American were among the makes that could be purchased this way.