My Hang-Ups (valves, that is)

[DonO.]

I’m talking about the valves on my King 2341 (new style). I have had it for about a year and a half now. Hard to believe! I still generally like it very much, but I am still having a bit of trouble with the valves. I say “still” because they have been problematic since the beginning. When I first got it they were not good at all, anything but smooth. I was advised by the owner of the store where I bought it to go through the break in procedure as outlined in the paperwork that came with the horn. This involved frequent cleaning of the valves and casings for several weeks, to get manufacturing debris out of there. Some tiny metal filings did indeed come out. Eventually, the valves became much, much better. But they still hung up occasionally, especially when I was holding down a lot of valves and then releasing them (think 1234 low C to open pedal Bb on a Bb horn). Admittedly, this situation does not come up often, but the occasional hang up is annoying. Another time is when I go from 12 D to 4 C (which does come up often), 1st hangs up. There’s no consistency, 1,2, or 3 may hang up at any given time. Never 4 for some reason. Mind you, the valve does come back up, just a fraction behind the others, which is enough to mess up a legato passage. Another phone call to the store owner advised me to solve the problem by trying to be more consistent with my fingerings, always pressing them down the same way each time. Also, to use the tips of the fingers as close to exact center of the valve button so that the pressure was all down, with no sideways element. This has helped some but it is difficult for me to do consistently- with my small hands having difficulty spanning all four valves exactly right.

During my first round of tuba playing, many years ago in a galaxy far away, I played mostly rotary valves. It seems to me that these were much easier and I had no hang up issues. The rotors pretty much move exactly the same way no matter how you mash down the paddle. I suppose this made my fingerings sloppy, since the rotors didn’t care whether I was using finger tips, finger sides, or my big toe.

So I’m kind of stuck with a conundrum about what to do next. Should I a) keep working on fingering technique, hoping it will get better b) take it to a shop to see if they can improve the valves c) sell it and buy a rotary horn or d) none of the above, do something else I haven’t considered? Any and all wisdom appreciated!

[bloke]

I've discussed this before (re: that make/model).

If you send it to a valve rebuilder, they can re-manufacture your valves to professional standards (rather than current Conn-Selmer standards, as well as aligning your slides to the same standards...$2000 plus r/t shipping...?? more...??

Unbolting the valveset and only sending that wouldn't guarantee that the valves wouldn't stick when bolted back onto the instrument.

You might even have a couple of the circuits slightly shortened...as they tend to make them almost or just-barely short enough.

The King is potentially a really excellent professional model tuba (re: design) but simply isn't manufactured nor priced as one.

[DonO.]

I've discussed this before (re: that make/model).

If you send it to a valve rebuilder, they can re-manufacture your valves to professional standards (rather than current Conn-Selmer standards, as well as aligning your slides to the same standards...$2000 plus r/t shipping...?? more...??

Unbolting the valveset and only sending that wouldn't guarantee that the valves wouldn't stick when bolted back onto the instrument.

You might even have a couple of the circuits slightly shortened...as they tend to make them almost or just-barely short enough.

The King is potentially a really excellent professional model tuba (re: design) but simply isn't manufactured nor priced as one.

Can you suggest shops that would tackle this work? I imagine that your typical local shop would not do it, since you specified “valve rebuilder” rather that “local repair person”.

What about replacing them with MAW valves yourself? His web site claims they will “drop in”, “often with no lapping necessary”. That seems easier/cheaper than shipping a tuba to a shop.

[bloke]

I suspect that neither the casings nor the pistons are up to snuff.

I would recommend having Dan Oberloh (out in Seattle) hone your valve casings to perfect cylinders (more "perfect" than the factory's definition of "perfect") and then stripping the nickel from the pistons, "starting over" (with the same pistons) and fitting them to the casings to the best (maybe even better than the best manufactured) standards.

If you would also like the slides perfectly aligned, he would probably do that prior to rebuilding the casings and pistons, because non-parallel and skew slides will bind, and put undue stress on valve casings (which is why I'm encouraging you to ALSO have the slides scrutinized).

Since your valves probably aren't "worn" (but just modern-age C-S mediocre), they probably will end up only barely larger than o.e.m. diameter.
If your pistons are typical (and you examine them really closely in good light with really good reading glasses), I'd predict that their surfaces are "grainy"...and they're really not supposed to be...but grainy surfaces is only one issue...as other issues are imperfect cylinders (pistons and casings)...along with (again) possible out-of-alignment slide stressing on the casing ports.

Again, if you unbolt the valveset and only send that, those detachable braces might also be under a bit of stress, and bolting it back on (when you get it back) could define (ugh) sticking valves...so I would send the entire instrument (even though that's really costly, these days)

Although these are small details, I might also recommend venting (at least) the #1 piston (but venting the rest promotes nicer slurring) and replacing the metal guides with synthetic.

If I really liked the way that a King 2341 plays (and I have a lot of respect for how they play - and one of my personal instruments is only a bit different - similar but maybe 1/8th smaller), I'd consider upgrading it from a school tuba to a personal/professional-grade tuba.

Here's my Holton (19" bell, only 32" tall), and with a 5th valve to help out the low range, but (more than that) to give me a perfect alternative to 2-4.
Yes...It's a B-flat tuba, and the valveset was (heavily altered and) taken from a (pre-Conn-Selmer era) King:



...and yes, my "'work-around" (avoiding a complete rebuild, as my pistons were (nope: not sticking) but very slightly loose-ish, was to notice that a used/for-sale set of MAW pistons was/were barely too tight in my casings, so lapping them into these casings defined closer tolerances...but that's probably not always (if very seldom) the case...ie. I was stupid-lucky in this regard...BUT I did have to obtain those pistons (ie. $$$).

[DonO.]

Bloke, that Holton of yours is a thing of beauty!

I wish I could find a shop here in the East, maybe even within reasonable driving distance, that could do this work. What say you, other denizens of this forum? Suggestions/recommendations for a shop near-ish to Pittsburgh or Cleveland that could do this job well?

The ironic thing is, the horn was bought from Quinn the Eskimo, who shipped it to me from Washington state. So it was made in Cleveland, OH (only a couple hours from me), went Hod knows where for trade shows as a demo (TMEA? ITEA?) then ended up with Quinn in WA. Then he shipped it to me. Now I might have to ship it BACK to Washington? Then back to ME? It might end up having the highest mileage of any tuba ever!

[MN_TimTuba]

Don,
I have fairly lengthy experience with 2 different new model King 2341 tubas.
The one I borrowed for 9 months was a wonderful tuba with those same sticky valves. No matter how much I oiled them, cleaned them, etc., there was always some random sticking. Since my previous Holton 345 always needed a mid-concert oiling I just took that as normal. That King belongs to my long time section mate, and still has that issue. I believe it's due to stesses from that removeable valve section.
The 2341 I currently own was purchased from Lee Stofer, and the valves are simply a dream. No sticking issues, they take just minimal oiling every 2nd or 3rd time playing. Lee had hand lapped and vented these valves, and evidently relieved the stresses, and the work was well worth the expense. I wish you were nearer, I'd have you play mine for a while. I see that Lee is less than a 9 hr drive from you (about the same as from me); if there is any way to swing it, I'd recommend taking your tuba to Lee, and ask him to make it like Tim's. There may be other artists within that driving distance from you, but I don't know them, and I can wholly without hesitation recommend Lee. I see, also, that you're less than 12 hrs from Joe, and you can certainly entrust your tuba to him and expect wonderful results . Either way it's some road time, but either way you'll be one happy tuba tooter.
Oh, and re: rotors (which are often very nice; I have 2 rotary horns that I like very much, so I'm not automatically anti-rotor.) - my touched-up King pistons are quieter, faster, lighter, and smoother than were my Miraphone 191 or my friend's Eastman 562.
Good luck out there!
Tim

[bloke]

Before spending big money, I would do this:

Take all the pistons out, take the bottom caps and springs off, remove all of the oil from the casings, and let the casings really dry out. Come back two or three hours later, shine a light down in the casings, and see if they look white. If they are white, what's going on is that you are fighting a coating of lime/scale, which needs to be dissolved with a repair shop's instrument cleaning acid.

Not all mediocre valves stick.

...Regarding the grainy-surfaced pistons and not quite cylindrical valve casings... Lee or I or someone else can work them into the casings with a very mild abrasive, but the surfaces are still going to be grainy, and the casings are still going to be not quite cylindrical.

We can also help out John Baptiste, Schiller, and all those other valves/brands made in that overseas factory, but they're still going to be crying out for needing to be completely remanufactured.

It's a question of whether you want them better, or whether you want them right.

[2nd tenor]

Everyone has their own experiences, I’ll share two that will maybe help someone:

# In the Covid lockdown I stoped playing for a while and had valve problems afterwards. The issue was traced back to lime deposits at the end of the piston travel. Checking the casings with caps removed was helpful to me, always check then bore condition at the end of the casing/piston travel range.

# My old Regent Eb was brought back from ‘beyond economic repair’ by myself and a brass tech - he did a good job on the bigger stuff and I sorted the simple items. One issue was intermittent valve sticking. There is no issue now and oiling plus playing helped, but the main cause of sticking seemed to be tiny amounts of muck and burrs in the casing keyways - I very carefully and lightly used Swiss files to remove the unwanted and smoothed the surface too.

Better or right? I always used to want right (ie. excellent or as perfect as was humanly possible) but these days ‘better’, to some point a bit beyond sufficient functionality, is good enough for me. YMMV, etc., but I’ve realised that I rarely, if ever, need perfection but I always need at least (ie. no less than) good functionality.

[Mary Ann]

Determine your cost / benefit ratio. Is it cheaper / easier to go ahead and switch back to rotors, or to fix the problems with pistons?

If I could find a rotary euphonium that was of the quality of my very good Sterling compensator, I'd dump the Sterling in an instant because I have such problems with pistons that it lowers my ability to play. However, the only rotary I ever found was so unbelievably out of tune with itself that I found it unplayable despite the better ergonomics.

[DonO.]

Thanks for the great replies!

I appreciate bloke’s wisdom, and I have no doubts regarding the assertion that the standards at the Conn Selmer factory are not as tight as they should be. And perfection/excellence/professional quality is a noble goal. However, at this point I’m not willing to spend 36 hours on the road and spend $2000+ dollars pursuing that. “Right” would be great. Honestly, I’d be satisfied with “better”. All I want is for the valves to comeback up quickly after I’m done mashing them down. If I could get there without the immense time, trouble, and expense of the complete rebuild, that would be fantastic.

I believe, based on all the input I’ve received here, I will first disassemble, check for lime deposits, and do a thorough cleaning and re-oiling. See what that gets me. If still not satisfied, will try my local repair shop and talk to them to see what they think they could do. I will consider visiting Iowa and spending big bucks only as a last resort. In other words, the conservative approach.

Again, thanks to all. I would not consider this the end of the discussion though. Please continue if anyone has fresh ideas or thinks I’m missing anything.

[Mary Ann]

You are just dreaming if you think a Tubaforum discussion is going to stop when the discussion is over!!!

[DonO.]

You are just dreaming if you think a Tubaforum discussion is going to stop when the discussion is over!!!

It is my wish that it doesn’t end! I learn so much from these discussions! You know, 45 years ago I graduated with a music degree with tuba as my major instrument, and I thought I was an “expert”. Now, all these years later, I realize I don’t know squat! It’s so much fun to keep on learning new things at my age!

[bloke]

I only know a little bit, because - after getting a band director degree and then working at a university towards a tenured tuba-fesser position, I realized I just don't have enough patience with non-motivated people (a considerable percentage) to be any sort of a teacher. When I'm working on stubborn/unresponsive-to-repair-efforts instruments, I can either throw them in the garbage or slam them against the wall - if they're mine, or - if they belong to someone else - I can tell them that I'm just too stupid and clumsy to fix them (a workaround for for telling people that their instruments are too crappy or too worn out to fix), and hand them back to them.
With teaching though, I would be expected to show up every day and at least go through the motions with those who have no interest in learning, and would have to get my rewards from the percentage who are actually interested in becoming better at something or knowing about something.
Plus, I'd have to deal with administrators who are former foobaw coachuz . Today it's even worse, because - with institutionalized teaching - all teachers are compelled either embrace nonsense or pretend to embrace nonsense. Teaching is too hard. Fixing (fixable) horns, selling (good) horns, and playing tricky stuff on horns are much easier than teaching.

[DonO.]

@DonO., have you contacted Matt Walters at Dillon Music? That’s like a 4-5 hour drive and Matt was using King valves almost exclusively in the horns he built and was involved with the new design. He might have some ideas also…

Might be worth the phone call.

[bloke]

Quite a while back, I sent a bunch of no-longer-made valves (Olds, Holton, Martin,etc.) to Dave Secrest to have him make them into perfect cylinders and just barely larger diameter than oem.

This was one that I fit into a casing (later) on an instrument that was missing a valve (the very reason that I had him rebuild these random worn/damaged pistons that I had sitting around in boxes). This was my next-to-last stage of fitting it in, and you can see a subtle cross hatch pattern in the surface. When I finished later, even that pattern wasn't really visible - as I finished up with only vertical strokes, and you can compare this to the way that King pistons look from the factory, today (ie. "grainy").

I suspect their current goal is to make valve casings and pistons so as the pistons drop right into the casings without any fitting work being required, as that's hand work - and it's time consuming.

I'd rather that people who promote themselves as valve rebuilders do this sort of thing for customers, as I prefer to only do it with instruments that I'm getting fixed up for sale. The point being that - if I mess up, I'm messing up my own stuff and not someone's else.



...and I suppose I'm wondering how well these valves work...(??)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/304874627853

[DonO.]

Update! Well, today I took bloke’s advice and took the valves apart, including the bottom caps. Imagine my surprise at finding “green goo” in there. Not a lot, mind you, but probably enough to affect things. So I did a thorough cleaning of the bottom caps, casings, and valves. Oiled them up, re-assembled, then went through my warm up routine (about 15 minutes of long tones, scales, arpeggios, lip slurs, and such). Not one single hang-up! So I am hopeful that this will do it and nothing more will be necessary. We’ll see.

The “green goo”, I’m guessing, is probably a mixture of oxidation, valve oil, and slide grease, yes?

[DonO.]

@DonO., have you contacted Matt Walters at Dillon Music? That’s like a 4-5 hour drive and Matt was using King valves almost exclusively in the horns he built and was involved with the new design. He might have some ideas also…

Might be worth the phone call.

No, I was not aware of Matt Walters’ connection with King. I’ve always wanted to go to Dillon, just spend the day blowin’ on some horns to see if anything speaks to me. I’ll bet I wouldn’t go home empty handed! Thanks for the info.

[bloke]

Don't skip over letting the casings dry out, and checking to see if they appear white, when dry.

Also (and about 104% of customers fit into this category - having claimed to have cleaned their valves and casings) EVEN THOUGH IT"S DIFFICULT, run a snake through the instrument and through ALL the ports that feed into the casings...checking for junk that's JUST OUTSIDE the casings, hanging around in those ports...and don't omit the ports that run BETWEEN each of the casings. BLAST water through all the tubes that feed into the casings (hot, if you've got a way to do that, and only use a REAL rubber hose, if jetting hot water.

When the knuckles feeding into the casing have junk in them, all oil does is to loosen up some of that junk and let it float in-between the pistons and the casings. When I see people talking about how "this" oil is better than "that" oil, that just tells me that their instrument is probably dirty and the oil that they like has less of a detergent effect than the ones they dislike. ANY thin oil (and everyone knows that I just use lamp oil out of gallon jugs) works with properly fitting, undamaged, and clean valves. Also - when some people will argue about blah-blah oil being "toxic"...I would like for them to list the ones that they add to their coffee, each morning.

[Mary Ann]

No, bloke, it's only 103%.

[Grumpikins]

I have been in manufacturing for nearly 20 years (not instruments, but all kinds of other things) and generally during the manufacturing process, everything is coated with oils that are designed to stay put to provide an anti oxidation barrier. In most cases, these oils are not washed off by the manufacturer at the end. It is likely that any new instrument needs to be chem cleaned to get rid of these oils. In your case, even if you clean the horn yourself, you will still get gobs of green goo which is the different oils mixing together along with oxidation finding thier way to your valves. We have been battling this with my sons new french horn also. Its going to a shop for a chem flush this summer.

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