tuba playing and (really) making music

Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
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tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

This is more a "tuba" post than a "euphonium" post, just fwiw...

Our instruments are unwieldy quirky, and approach the mechanical and physical limits of what can be managed...

...but double basses (string basses) are all of these things as well, and (can we talk?) often, quite a bit more demand is put on them (technically) than us, and many of them seem more (well) musically sensitive than do many of us - and at all levels of ensembles.

We strive to master tone production (loud/soft high/low), articulation (smooth/hard slow/fast), time (when we can tolerate playing along with that blasted metronome, which seems to race and slow down), and intonation (arguably, often to a lesser extent - as the bass-oriented/treble-muted resonance of our instruments often cloaks intonation context clues to others' ears, and - this, combined with some pitches on our instruments that are not naturally true).

The one group of playing aspects that many of us (I'm raising my own hand, here) seem to tend to ignore (and get away with ignoring, because "that's really good for a tuba") is phrasing and expression. Even when we believe we are making phrasing/expression efforts, (often) it may be more in our heads - than out our bells (much as when people sing along with expertly-sung recordings, and believe that they themselves are executing all the subtleties heard in the artists' recordings - along with which they are singing).

Some of us scoff at "country" music (OK...that genre itself has degraded over the last couple of decades, but that's beside the point). The reason, though, that people are attracted to it is not because it is sophisticated (it almost always is not), and not because it is clever (it often is not), but because it is expressive and affects emotions...and the same goes for hip-hop/rap/etc. Nearly everyone (note: "nearly") who listens to music is seeking emotional expression, and not-so-much the technical nor the clever.

Phrasing and expression are not mysterious. Rather (and just as with all other aspects of playing) they are mechanically executed, and involve (not just these things, but these things and even more things...things which will occur to us as we study examples of superb phrasing, and strive to imitate it and learn from it).
> the use of many more than three or four types of articulations. So called "jazz" players use all sorts of unnamed articulations, most of which also enhance "classical" music (and most of which are also utilized by those "remarkable" classical musicians whom we admire the most).
> more use of dynamics - and legion more use than those marked dynamic changes, but also those which are implied.
> in ensemble playing (which is most of our playing) and accompanying a solo line (which STILL is most of our playing), executing subtle phrasing techniques which ENHANCE the (typically treble-voiced) solo line, and thus make the solo line's delivery to the audience (well...) even more emotional.
> Even when other "reinforcement" instruments around us (amateur or paid players) are ~not~ doing these things, having them hear us do them is "catching", and (eventually) more of them will begin to do them - thus elevating the amount of (actual) music that is created by the corporately generated sounds.

Marcel Tabuteau - the father of the American school of oboe playing - developed a mechanical system to teach his students how to play expressively. A couple of the most simple things in his system are to (generally, with exceptions) play louder as a phrase climbs in pitch, and to (generally, with exceptions) diminuendo as a phrase lowers in pitch (much as with human vocal expression). Another thing is to (rather than just these: ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff) to actually set numerical dynamic levels (perhaps twenty of them :bugeyes: ) for each pitch on one's instrument, to take control over them, to learn them, and (eventually) always be aware of the loudness "number" being consciously selected for any given pitch.

https://www.google.com/search?ei=_MxgX9 ... ber+system

It just seems to me that the more (actual) music we make (rather than just "well-executed pitched sounds - at various volume levels") the more we will be considered (by other musicians and patrons of music) to be musicians, and without the attached-adjective "auxiliary"...and maybe even without the (unspoken, but - likely - often thought) expression, "good, for a tuba".

bloke "...or perhaps not." :smilie6:


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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by tubanh84 »

I completely agree that we need to spend more time working on musicality. There are a lot of barriers to it, but it absolutely can be done.

First and foremost is that we have to have a musical idea. Even a mechanical approach like you described is an idea.

Second, we have to have the technical facility to express the idea (we need to be able to play high, low, soft, loud, various articulations, different tone, etc...) Because you can't take an idea out of your head and put it out the audience without having the technique be immediately available. I can have the idea to throw a touchdown pass to the back corner of the end zone, but put a football in my hand and I absolutely will not throw a touchdown pass, nor will the ball likely end up near the end zone at all.

Third, we need to get the idea through the horn and out to the audience. We are always told, and it's not wrong, that whatever you think you're doing, you're not. So you need to record yourself and be honest with yourself and figure out that extra 10% that gets the idea from your head to the back of the hall.

One of the parts of this I personally struggle with is letting myself get too caught up in the emotion, so I'm playing the emotion, rather than using my technique to express the emotion. The result is too hard a tone, or breaking up the sound rather than keeping it in control, or letting ppp die off without enough breath support. PLAYING the emotion effectively while keeping your objective technical head is a skill all of its own.

Finally, our instrument has a lot of hurdles, mostly because of its size and shape. We need to avoid the big, brassy sound that trombones, trumpets, and horns are allowed to achieve. Our articulations are not as clear as an oboe or trumpet, so the subtlety of du vs tu vs lu vs nu is lost pretty quickly, especially in the low register. We can't make as long phrases as most other instruments. We can't do the same scoops, drops, bends, and other nuances that violins and voices can. We can't control and coordinate our own accompaniment the way guitar and piano players can.

Those all sound like excuses, but they are very real considerations in my opinion. The instrument has limits. But we can work effectively within them and create real beauty in a way many other instruments can. Our sound has a soul and a depth that other instruments lack. We can play shockingly low and (seemingly) shockingly high. There is drama in that. We will very rarely make a sound that is abrasive the way some instruments do. And we have a human need to breathe, so we don't have to figure out how mechanically to break up lines like string players do.

Like everything else, it takes thought, practice, honest self-assessments, and risk taking. But it is, to me, not just a laudable goal; it's a necessary one.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

to your point...

"Stars" sing and play the same small number of tunes endless times (on tour), and (though an audience can inspire/electrify a performer) they must rely on delivery techniques, rather than (real) emotion or inspiration.

Some days, they feel great. Other days, they're a bit ill. Sometimes, they've received bad news. Yet other times, they are in conflict with others around them. They must - then - rely on mechanical/technical (not emotion-inspired) ways of making music consistently. Actors feign emotions...and some even feel them with feigning them...but to rely on feeling them (when conveying them in performance) begs inconsistency in delivery.

One might (??) even be able to argue that deeply-felt emotions could possibly actually offer distractions to a performer.

As performers, we are being asked-or-paid to inspire/entertain (ie. serve) others, and - if we ourselves receive any inspiration or entertainment from our own performances - that is icing on the cake.

=====================================================

bloke "Even march bass lines benefit from musical expression and deeper levels of interpretation, as the only thing 'mechanical-sounding' about marches should be their pace."
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bone-a-phone »

As a trombonist, and speaking, if I can, for the rest of the musical organization, we don't really want the tuba to be too musical. I mean, we kind of do want it to be a bit mechanical, laying down the beat and the pitch center primarily. Continuo for classical stuff, or rhythm section for other.

On the other hand, maybe it's just more subtle. I do play bass line sort of stuff from time to time as a bass bone. Bass line playing is so much different from other types of playing.
  • emphasize the beat, and then back off (don't sustain loud)
  • emphasize moving parts of the line, especially if it is moving tonally, leading notes, accidentals
  • really keep the time, you're part of the rhythm section
  • tone quality is really a secondary issue
  • you need to lead rather than follow, you may be a background instrument, but if you follow the rest of the group, things drag and fall apart
  • nobody else really cares about your angst surrounding rotary or piston, C or Bb, silver or lacquer (or raw), compensating or not, tilt left/right
All of this is true...until you become a solo instrument, and the rest of us really expect you to make the switch on a dime. We expect I IV V oompahs from you all day long until we want a brilliant Sam Pilafian type solo. Nothing brings the house down like when a tuba player turns out to be a real musician, and doesn't let the limitations of the instrument slow him/her down. I always take the measure of a tuba player by someone who can lead from the bottom and lead from the front.

I was inspired to try to play a tuba by a tuba player who knew how to make that transition from rhythm section to tone colorist to soloist. The power of the instrument is why they only put one in an orchestra to balance 3 or 4 trombones and a sea of string basses.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

One thing (and I didn't want to get very specific in my post, because suggestions will become infinite and overly-specific) that we can do is to follow the dynamics of the solo/soli instrument's line's implied phrasing (WITHIN our own composer-requested dynamic) rather than just "sitting on" a two-to-ten-beat-long sustained pitch - as if it was nothing more than an organ-pedal-activated pitch.

Subtle is fine, as long as perceptible and contributing (vs. distracting).

Often, we are ignored (and understandably so) by music directors, but (well...) watch them notice us (in good ways) when we (sure: subtly) do more to contribute to the product other than play the instructions on the piece of paper. So many people seem (??) to think of "music" as the collection of pieces of paper in their folders.

It's not our job to attempt to run the low brass section from its fourth chair, but it's ok to inspire it...yes...??

(...and I apologize for speaking mostly in terms of orchestral playing, but - though I love wind-band playing - I just don't get many opportunities to play in those ensembles.)

...and here's another (admittedly very specific) musical technique: fading to nothing.
Tuba players love the loud, but "our sound evaporating" (particularly when it remains on-pitch and beautifully resonant) can be electric.

Finally (and mostly responding-to and reassuring "bone-a-phone" of my intentions/suggestions) I don't consider "music" and "schmaltz" to be synonyms. :smilie8:
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by tubanh84 »

bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:40 am

One might (??) even be able to argue that deeply-felt emotions could possibly actually offer distractions to a performer.
That's what I have experienced. If I get too into the emotions of a piece, in particular one that requires a lot of low/loud honking, I am not relaxed enough to execute the low/loud honking. Aggressive honking is NOT the same.
bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:16 am

It's not our job to attempt to run the low brass section from its fourth chair, but it's ok to inspire it...yes...??
I'm going to use this thread as an excuse to re-post something I wrote on the Old Site, both because it is a bit relevant and to make sure it doesn't get erased:

A mediocre tubaist won't ruin an orchestra performance. Likely won't even be heard.

However, a good tubaist can absolutely improve an orchestral performance. We may have fewer notes than the violins, but their notes are a lot more effective with a bass line that moves with them as opposed to just whacking out the part. And the audience will notice those one or two notes that make them really notice the tuba (in a good way), and it will enhance their experience of the whole piece. People get a satisfaction out of a tuba played well, because they generally haven't thought of the tuba as an instrument that can sound as good as a tuba can actually sound. For some reason, even seasoned orchestral audiences still think we just mindlessly play oom-pahs. I always get a good reaction when I disabuse them of that notion. Even though that realization isn't part of the musical performance, despite arising from the musical performance, it's a novel and interesting thing for a lot of people that can make their day.

I've always thought of tuba players like catchers in baseball. Catchers wear the "tools of ignorance," and their job seems like it's just to get 100mph baseballs thrown at them. But the good ones bring an intellect to the job that allows the players with physically more demanding and difficult jobs to do them better - pitch selection, positioning, working the pitcher out of jams, directing on-field motion as plays develop. They think about the entire diamond, the way a good tubaist should think of the entire orchestra.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

Just to be clear (sure: loud/boisterous passages joyous/frightening passages should be played with bravado, but) when posting in this thread, I've (mostly) had some of the not-as-loudly-played, more linear, and more sostenuto passages in mind.

The Meistersinger soli passages (that hundreds of tuba players rehearse thousands of times) are elemental - if not simple, but there is much more potential in them for (not just accurate time, and in-tune C-major playing, but also) musical phrasing than is typically heard...Just fwiw, as is executed here:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1231355613582885
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by Three Valves »

Wagner... :bow2:
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

Three Valves wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:30 pm Wagner... :bow2:
...not the cheapest, but reliable, and probably the best value for high quality.

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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by matt g »

Die Meistersinger Role:

Provide clarity of articulation for the voices playing the melody. Be in tune and on time and make the high E seem effortless at mezzoforte. It’s a rather simple part.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

matt g wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:41 pm Die Meistersinger Role:

Provide clarity of articulation for the voices playing the melody. Be in tune and on time and make the high E seem effortless at mezzoforte. It’s a rather simple part.
...and (per Marcel Tabuteau) "Up is up, and down is down".

bloke "Per the video link, I feel certain that he played it even better during the performance."
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by Doc »

bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:29 am The one group of playing aspects that many of us (I'm raising my own hand, here) seem to tend to ignore (and get away with ignoring, because "that's really good for a tuba") is phrasing and expression. Even when we believe we are making phrasing/expression efforts, (often) it may be more in our heads - than out our bells (much as when people sing along with expertly-sung recordings, and believe that they themselves are executing all the subtleties heard in the artists' recordings - along with which they are singing).
I was told early on about this "phenomenon" regarding phrasing/dynamics/etc. It was explained to me that as tubists, we have to exaggerate what we are doing to a certain extent for what we hear in our heads (and what we perceive coming out of the bell) to actually reach and be perceived as such by the audience. I was also challenged to record myself playing something expressive if I needed convincing. I did, and I still do. Sometimes I feel like I put in lots of work in terms of expression, but upon playback, it sounds like I'm not trying very hard. That sucks. And if your recording gets compressed (YouTube), it further "evens out" your efforts. It reminds me to pay more attention to phrasing and expression, and that I probably can't overdo it.
Some of us scoff at "country" music (OK...that genre itself has degraded over the last couple of decades, but that's beside the point). The reason, though, that people are attracted to it is not because it is sophisticated (it almost always is not), and not because it is clever (it often is not), but because it is expressive and affects emotions...and the same goes for hip-hop/rap/etc. Nearly everyone (note: "nearly") who listens to music is seeking emotional expression, and not-so-much the technical nor the clever.


That's why many traditional country music fans can't stand the new stuff. Highly compressed, mixed at higher dB (often 10dB instead of 3dB), cliche'-laden, shallow lyrics, pop rhythms, geared toward teenagers, formulaic in nature. But it speaks to its intended audience. Conversely, if you listen to top-shelf recordings from the A-Team back in the 1960's and 1970's, you'll often hear real musicians playing arrangements filled with nuance and musicianship. No autotune or big-time modern effects on vocals either. I have a soapbox on this a mile high, so I better step off now while I can.
bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:40 am to your point...

"Stars" sing and play the same small number of tunes endless times (on tour), and (though an audience can inspire/electrify a performer) they must rely on delivery techniques, rather than (real) emotion or inspiration.

Some days, they feel great. Other days, they're a bit ill. Sometimes, they've received bad news. Yet other times, they are in conflict with others around them. They must - then - rely on mechanical/technical (not emotion-inspired) ways of making music consistently. Actors feign emotions...and some even feel them with feigning them...but to rely on feeling them (when conveying them in performance) begs inconsistency in delivery.

One might (??) even be able to argue that deeply-felt emotions could possibly actually offer distractions to a performer.

As performers, we are being asked-or-paid to inspire/entertain (ie. serve) others, and - if we ourselves receive any inspiration or entertainment from our own performances - that is icing on the cake.
Some songs are tough to sing or play because of emotion attachment. Relying on technique can get you through. It's a different kind of focus, and it should be a tool in our toolbox.


"Even march bass lines benefit from musical expression and deeper levels of interpretation, as the only thing 'mechanical-sounding' about marches should be their pace."
Amen. My band director had been a career tubist in the Air Force and was a huge Sousa fan. Besides the general genius of Sousa, he loved that most of the bass parts were melodic in some form or fashion, and he advocated playing them as beautiful lines with the same care you would give a wonderful melody. Give it life and direction because it is music, and the bass lines need to be musical so that everything riding on top can be musical. He said to make the dynamics of the line dynamic. The next time we played The Thunderer (football game), he looked up at me, pointed to his ear (indicating for me to listen). Point made.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by jtm »

Doc wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 am Some songs are tough to sing or play because of emotion attachment. Relying on technique can get you through. It's a different kind of focus, and it should be a tool in our toolbox.
It's silly, but that Carmen Dragon "America" gets me every time. Especially playing euphonium.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

jtm wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:35 pm
Doc wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 am Some songs are tough to sing or play because of emotion attachment. Relying on technique can get you through. It's a different kind of focus, and it should be a tool in our toolbox.
It's silly, but that Carmen Dragon "America" gets me every time. Especially playing euphonium.
“America the Beautiful”
...The soaring unison horn counter-melody makes that arrangement.

The D.C. Navy Band played that in our high school auditorium in 1973, when they were on tour. It was probably the first time I ever heard truly powerful horn players playing live. Realize that this was during Vietnam, and any young person who could got into one of those bands to avoid crawling around in the jungle or riding around in helicopters operating machine guns in Southeast Asia...even if they could’ve gotten a better paying job somewhere else than the military...which defined those bands as particularly amazing during that era. A young Brian Bowman also played an astonishingly impressive euphonium solo on a satin-silver Besson euphonium, that same night.
Sadly, that concert was very sparsely attended.
Happily, I showed up.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by Jperry1466 »

Doc wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 am
bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:40 am
"Even march bass lines benefit from musical expression and deeper levels of interpretation, as the only thing 'mechanical-sounding' about marches should be their pace."
Amen. My band director had been a career tubist in the Air Force and was a huge Sousa fan. Besides the general genius of Sousa, he loved that most of the bass parts were melodic in some form or fashion, and he advocated playing them as beautiful lines with the same care you would give a wonderful melody. Give it life and direction because it is music, and the bass lines need to be musical so that everything riding on top can be musical. He said to make the dynamics of the line dynamic. The next time we played The Thunderer (football game), he looked up at me, pointed to his ear (indicating for me to listen). Point made.
Yes. Yes. Yes. I was taught (and taught this myself as a band director) that the bass line "leads" the dynamics and musicality of an ensemble. Although I thought it was much harder to do a proper crescendo - diminuendo and shape a phrase on tuba than on say, the trumpet, I knew it was my job to make it happen in the band. Expression from the upper voices over a dull bass line makes the music just that: Dull. As for marches, I am a march nut but do not particularly like "concert marches". For 33 years I taught nothing but King, Sousa, and Fillmore marches, whether for concert or contest. To me, they just made more music. My French horn players, on the other hand, hated my guts every time I said "get out the march". :teeth:
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by Doc »

Jperry1466 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:37 pm
Yes. Yes. Yes. I was taught (and taught this myself as a band director) that the bass line "leads" the dynamics and musicality of an ensemble. Although I thought it was much harder to do a proper crescendo - diminuendo and shape a phrase on tuba than on say, the trumpet, I knew it was my job to make it happen in the band. Expression from the upper voices over a dull bass line makes the music just that: Dull. As for marches, I am a march nut but do not particularly like "concert marches". For 33 years I taught nothing but King, Sousa, and Fillmore marches, whether for concert or contest. To me, they just made more music. My French horn players, on the other hand, hated my guts every time I said "get out the march". :teeth:
Yep!

As an electric and upright bass player, I learned early on that the bass leads the group chordally, rhythmically, and often dynamically. It puts the drive into the groove. What we play, how we play it (including the notes we choose to lead the band into what's coming next, plus texture, style, depth of the line, etc.) provides foundation and direction for the band. Playing tuba is no different. I wrote a short article on the bass player's job a few years ago. Aside from some things that might be bass-specific, you could have replaced the word "bass" with "tuba," and it would have been just as true.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by humBell »

Someday, i hope to be able to post coherently in a thread like this...

It might be a while, as I still got a tab open from a couple years back when i last came across bloke mentioning Marcel Tabuteau, so one of these days, i'll read it.

I do think that it is important to be able to listen and tell (or at least figure out eventually) what is good and what ain't. Keep playing, then rest will take care of itself. At least i sincerely hope so.

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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:40 am "Even march bass lines benefit from musical expression and deeper levels of interpretation, as the only thing 'mechanical-sounding' about marches should be their pace."
Indeed. I have always thought of marches as three-movement mini-symphonies (or four, if there is a break strain or dog fight). Having a Navy band trained conductor in high school, we were taught to make each section have its own personality, while keeping the overall ambiance and musicality of the march. To this day, I would rather play a good march than just about anything else. When I conducted a small ensemble a few years ago, the hardest job I had was not technical blend or getting the players to keep time together, but getting them to think and work together about the items of discussion of this thread to bring the real music out of the march.
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by bloke »

iiipopes wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:32 am
bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:40 am "Even march bass lines benefit from musical expression and deeper levels of interpretation, as the only thing 'mechanical-sounding' about marches should be their pace."
Indeed. I have always thought of marches as three-movement mini-symphonies (or four, if there is a break strain or dog fight). Having a Navy band trained conductor in high school, we were taught to make each section have its own personality, while keeping the overall ambiance and musicality of the march. To this day, I would rather play a good march than just about anything else. When I conducted a small ensemble a few years ago, the hardest job I had was not technical blend or getting the players to keep time together, but getting them to think and work together about the items of discussion of this thread to bring the real music out of the march.
Different (I hate calling them "notes", but...) notes should receive different levels of stress - depending on (again) phrasing, and most 6/8 marches should actually feature "notes" that last 2/3rds of each beat (ok to taper off the volume of each - imitating a pizzicato) vs. the length of "notes" in alla breve marches, which should last (sure, also fading away) half of each beat...It TOTALLY changes the feel/attitude of a march to execute these note lengths correctly and differently (rather than "same").
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iiipopes
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Re: tuba playing and (really) making music

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:44 am
iiipopes wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:32 am
bloke wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:40 am "Even march bass lines benefit from musical expression and deeper levels of interpretation, as the only thing 'mechanical-sounding' about marches should be their pace."
Indeed. I have always thought of marches as three-movement mini-symphonies (or four, if there is a break strain or dog fight). Having a Navy band trained conductor in high school, we were taught to make each section have its own personality, while keeping the overall ambiance and musicality of the march. To this day, I would rather play a good march than just about anything else. When I conducted a small ensemble a few years ago, the hardest job I had was not technical blend or getting the players to keep time together, but getting them to think and work together about the items of discussion of this thread to bring the real music out of the march.
Different (I hate calling them "notes", but...) notes should receive different levels of stress - depending on (again) phrasing, and most 6/8 marches should actually feature "notes" that last 2/3rds of each beat (ok to taper off the volume of each - imitating a pizzicato) vs. the length of "notes" in alla breve marches, which should last (sure, also fading away) half of each beat...It TOTALLY changes the feel/attitude of a march to execute these note lengths correctly and differently (rather than "same").
Indeed.
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