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I don't play/practice/etc. as much as I did decades ago.

Back when I was really working on improvement (rather than maintenance, or just "mastering some upcoming hard-ass tune") something I would do (to push my mastery of a piece of music or an orchestral excerpt BEYOND just "mastery" or even "memorization" - ie. KNOWING a piece or an excerpt) would be to play whatever-it-was in various nearby keys, or - if no "key" - a semitone to a minor third away from where a piece/phrase/excerpt is written.

Doing this put those pieces/phrases/excerpts completely in my head, and I knew every interval by sound relationship - rather than only by finger-mashing patterns or note names.

Probably around the era that I was at my best (and - to be sure - I was using my F tuba: an extraordinary instrument that plays itself), I was rehearsing that old Armand Russell piece (tuba and woodwind quintet) for a performance. We finished the piece (which ends in a flourish - a blur of "notes" for the tuba). The passage is a bit awkward. I casually mentioned that I wished that passage were a semitone higher, and ran through it (slightly more quickly and more clearly than at the written pitch level). The flute player's eyes widened...I just assumed that other people approached difficult passages in the same way (and particularly woodwind players - with all that stuff they always are expected to play), but apparently not. This is the passage, and - perhaps, had I just slowed it down to the speed on this recording - it would probably have been considerably easier to play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

Anyway...I would encourage anyone to try this approach (outlined above). It leads to increased aural and mental understanding of what is being played, and - when a player is able to get past the technical - they can then (finally) delve into the musical. (Often, tuba players are congratulated for achieving the technical, and that's about as far - with many - as it seems to go.)

re: definition of terms...I posted about "levels of performance" previously, and it has nothing to do with how close to error-free a performance is.

Very interesting thought. I quit playing when I entered engineering school at 18, and picked up the horn again 26 years later. I’ve been studying and practicing since them\n, but because I had little formal education in theory, I lock up when it comes time to play patterns in various keys without reading. I know this is a weakness, and you’ve given me thought to try some of it.

Don

I'd be surprised if theory is a big help with this, but then I'm not sure what theory even is.

What Bloke is describing has been my "Go-To"- habit with stuff I play without sheet music in front of me.
It never occurred to me to extend that to written music...

That being said, there is a cool variant to that habit:
- play any memorized tune that has several phrases and a nice melody.
Example: the German christmas song "Alle Jahre Wieder" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alle_Jahre_wieder,
which is the one I started off with that habit many years ago.
(that article shows the original written music for reference).

- start each new phrase a half step above the last note of the previous phrase, no matter what the REAL next note would be.
- stick to this rule for all consecutive phrases.
- switch octaves if necessary because you may run out of range at some point.
- repeat as a circular exercise until the 1st phrase starts on the original note again.

In our example: 1st phrase ends on "e", 2nd phrase, as written, begins on "d".
Start that 2nd phrase on "f" instead. Consequently, this phrase will end on "g" instead of the written "e".
Therefore, next phrase will start on an "a-flat" instead of written "f#" or the implied "a" that would otherwise restore the original interval with reference to that modified 2nd phrase.

The trick is: Don´t do any maths on this. It is intended to school your hard-wired connections between your inner ear and the mechanics involved to "make that sound happen".
Play by ear/sound and train yourself to instinctly "know" what the next sound should be.
Start with easiest songs and go from there.

In the just-previous response/remarks, what was said towards the end is the most important part, which is not to think about note names, but to think about the sound/sounds of the passage that's being played, and to imitate all of those sounds at other pitch levels. Once the sounds of a passage - including all the intervals and rhythms (whatever's in it) are ingrained into the mind, the player knows the passage. Knowing is beyond memorization, and leads to the very highest level of performance.

Being older and also not practicing as much as I did decades ago, it takes me longer to do this than it used to, but it's still quite worth doing, assuming I want to really know a passage or a piece of music rather than just be able to play it or have it memorized. Again the most musical performances come out of those who know the music, and don't just have the music memorized.

A clue that "knowing" has occurred or is occurring (surpassing memorization) is when a difficult - and perhaps even complicated-to-aurally-analyze - passage is playing through one's head - and playing through one's head correctly - while off doing other tasks.

As far as a theory or music theory - words which were inserted - I'm not sure how this is tied in with music theory or if it is a theory. It's a thing, it's a thing that I do, and it's a thing that has worked for me.

isnt this just transposing?

imnotbrown wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:17 am isnt this just transposing?

It's more. It's working towards knowing the sound relationships within a complete passage (or within a complete piece).
Moving it to a different pitch level (and - importantly - NOT doing it via typical "transposition" mental constructs, but rather in the same way that someone can sing - or hopefully, play - "Happy Birthday" at any pitch level without "transposing") is just a methodology of escaping from the sheet music and escaping from the pitch names to working to know how a complete passage SOUNDS.

I'm using a bunch of words...and "using a bunch of words" can easily come off either as mumbo-jumbo or Carl-Sagen-esque...but I'm trying to explain something that's really quite simple.

I think I would call that intervalic memorization. Unless you have perfect pitch, in which you likely don't "memorize by interval," (although you still CAN --) but instead memorize "by pitch," and simply use the needed fingering patterns for the pitches you memorized, you have memorized how far away each note is from the previous one, and can reproduce that anywhere on the fly, being able to associate those intervals with, again, the needed fingering patterns. Most can do that with simple tunes like Joy to the World, Mary Had a Little Lamb, Twinkle Twinkle, etc. It takes more time and effort to memorize a more complex piece that way, but it is still memorization of the sequential intervals. I label it a skill rather than a talent, just like sight reading. LACKING "perfect pitch" makes it much more likely that things memorized "by ear" are by interval in combination with fingering; learning it from sheet music locks you into fingerings in a way that, for example, singers don't ever have to deal with. But if they actually DO have "perfect pitch" and learned a piece in a specific key, they could have as much trouble "transposing" as most instrumentalists do. Singers always memorize by interval, otherwise, being unlimited by fingerings or knowing exactly what pitches they are singing.

Whatever it is...(put in really simple terms) "knowing how something goes" (without referencing memorizing note names or memorizing finger patterns at a single pitch level) is a higher level of knowing a musical passage than the others, yes?

The point of the different pitch levels isn't to transpose, but is just a way to get away from the note names and finger patterns.

Do you think it’s possible to “know” the music without having memorized it? I can play many pieces in my head note-perfect (and I’m being rigorous about what that really means) but would still need the music in front of me to play it reliably.

It seems to me that the intervals one knows in their head does not necessarily translate to fingerings or even played intervals. That seems to me a separate skill.

Hindemith talked of a student who could hear and understand pitch, but whose memory of it vanish the instant he tried to produce it.

Lots of non-musicians can play music in their heads.

Rick “playing a Bach cello thing in his head right now” Denney

Rick Denney wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 9:47 am Do you think it’s possible to “know” the music without having memorized it?

We're probably cutting the semantics too fine at that point. When I read "memorize" here, it calls to mind a sort of systematic and intentional process, but really it's acquisition of memory. If you know music without having memorized it, it's because you invented it yourself.

What I think bloke and Tubeast are talking about is the intersection knowledge of the music, and knowledge of playing music on the tuba, where the knowledge is of the kind that can only be experienced in the act. You put music in your fingers - where it belongs. (OK, fingers are probably a less important body part in this case, but it's a common expression, OK?)

Memorization is the level below knowing.

...at least, in my personal experience.

I believe I posted in the past and mentioned levels like

sight-reading, reading, referring to the music after practicing it extensively, memorization, and then just (again, for lack of a better word) "knowing" it.

...and I may have sorted it out slightly differently, but - regardless - there are stages/levels of "owning;knowing" a piece of music.

I believe there are quite a few marches and some other pieces that I can probably just "play" - were the sheet music to disappear.

An example that I offered (OK...not any melodies, but some very specific bass parts) was a two-man gig (trumpet and tuba on a balcony) at what's (left over from the old Memphis Cotton Carnival) now called "Carnival Memphis", and I suggested "King Cotton March", I played the intro, he entered the first strain. At the end, he called me a "freak", because the keys we played it in were not-at-all the written keys...but (yet) he was just as much of a "freak", because he had no trouble playing it in those keys either...

...so he and I KNEW King Cotton March (by SOUND relationships) and not by fingerings nor by notes.

What I guess from reading all this is that for many, "memorizing" means being able to produce it physically, having learned it "physically." I've never been ABLE to do that, to just learn it "physically." So I can't even comment on that process. I learn the music and then I play the music; when I see printed music I hear it in my head the same as if I were listening to it, and I learn it "by sound," not by how I do it physically. I think many more-successful-than-I instrumentalists learn it physically. Some then add in music, and some don't. Some will have the music from the git-go, and they are fantastic "musical sight readers," because they aren't just reproducing dots on the page.

If one is lucky enough to play jazz, this "knowing" the music and the benefits becomes obvious. When we (my pop band) stand around doing our jazz set during cocktails, we call tunes - sometimes we discuss standard key or desired key but any key is possible once you know the tune... and it doesn't matter if I'm playing tuba or bass- once the tune is in my head the notes/fingerings come easily... on a good day, haha.

I say "lucky enough to play jazz" because if you are doing something similar to the activity mentioned above on a high level, you realize the benefits to all your musical activities. Having a pitch/note in the head and an automatic fingering response opens the door to all sorts of musical freedom.

I mention jazz because it is very common for good players to call and perform tunes in the workplace without sheet music. They are performing and creating, and composing on the spot with nothing more than the tune in their head.

Part of my tuba warm-up is to take a phrase or note grouping and move it all over the instrument - usually around the circle of 4ths but sometimes chromatic, minor 3rds, or random.

I have a select few solos I have been playing/developing for a very long time. As they become automatic/learned/memorized the playing moves to another level. The mind becomes totally free to reach your highest musical levels. Being untethered in this way is a wonderful experience on any level.

just my thoughts on this fascinating subject. I am writing because these topics are, to me, what makes this blog worthwhile. I get bored with talk of bell size and Chinese tubay.

If you have a song in your head... PLAY IT!

tj

Tim Jackson wrote: ↑Sat May 06, 2023 11:46 am If one is lucky enough to play jazz, this "knowing" the music and the benefits becomes obvious. When we (my pop band) stand around doing our jazz set during cocktails, we call tunes - sometimes we discuss standard key or desired key but any key is possible once you know the tune... and it doesn't matter if I'm playing tuba or bass- once the tune is in my head the notes/fingerings come easily... on a good day, haha.

I say "lucky enough to play jazz" because if you are doing something similar to the activity mentioned above on a high level, you realize the benefits to all your musical activities. Having a pitch/note in the head and an automatic fingering response opens the door to all sorts of musical freedom.

I mention jazz because it is very common for good players to call and perform tunes in the workplace without sheet music. They are performing and creating, and composing on the spot with nothing more than the tune in their head.

Part of my tuba warm-up is to take a phrase or note grouping and move it all over the instrument - usually around the circle of 4ths but sometimes chromatic, minor 3rds, or random.

I have a select few solos I have been playing/developing for a very long time. As they become automatic/learned/memorized the playing moves to another level. The mind becomes totally free to reach your highest musical levels. Being untethered in this way is a wonderful experience on any level.

just my thoughts on this fascinating subject. I am writing because these topics are, to me, what makes this blog worthwhile. I get bored with talk of bell size and Chinese tubay.

If you have a song in your head... PLAY IT!

tj

yeah...I attempt to start threads about (actually) playing, because I'm tired or reading about the latest Yamo-Jimbo-Packo-Eastmo horns.
I have all the horns I want, and ain't interested in any others...even if they're shiny and cheap to buy.

I refer to that which @Tim Jackson refers as a "capo" (even though no fretboard - just "comfort with all of the various keys/scales/arpeggios").

These are great players, but I have to believe (remarkable performance) that they're playing it better than they would be playing it were there pieces of paper in front of their faces...and - additionally - it ALSO does NOT sound as if they are looking up in their brains and "reading" off memorized pieces of paper...

...ie. they KNOW this piece.




https://www.facebook.com/theproms/video ... 2701771265

My browser blocked the video to keep FB from tracking me, which is fine with me.

Case in point: A couple weeks ago the quintet asked me to bring my violin so we could read Ashokan Farewell again (it has been quite some time, and with a previous 1st trumpet now departed ten years.) I arranged it so the "trombone" has the violin part, because I play the trombone part in the quintet.
It sounded truly awful in terms of intonation, with Ashokan Farewell being in concert D, which puts it in concert E for the trumpets, which for band-playing amateur trumpet players, is a stretch.

The next week, they said they'd like to try it again and my response was -- how about I just use the computer to raise it to F, and I'll just play the violin part in Eb, which is no big deal on that particular piece, because I know what it sounds like. To me this seems exactly what bloke is talking about.

@Mary Ann

It's not important at all that you see it, but you know that you can go to your Facebook account, login, and simply paste that web address into your browser and hit enter.