"my position" that I "won", etc.

[bloke]

What some fail to understand about their job in a symphony orchestra (whether the salary is $5K/yr. or $105K/yr.) is that (from concertmaster to bass drummer) this is how the musicians are viewed:

The music director views the musicians as organ stops.

The management views the musicians as absurdly-high-cost expenses.
ex: "We should get that 20-pc. orchestration of 'The Nutcracker'." (etc.)

The best way to view a so-called "steady gig" is to view it as a long-or-fairly-long string of one night stands.

Further, (again: whether $5K/yr, $105K/yr, or something in-between), it's more than wise to have something else going on, and something that - hopefully - pays as well as the "steady gig", and (also) LIVE OFF of the "other" income", without even relying on the "steady gig" income to cover one's expenses at all. (ex: A past top-tier oboist in a top-tier orchestra was a real estate agent - by day, and advertised in the orchestra's printed programs. The orchestra salary - fairly soon - became parenthetical.)

At that point, the "steady gig" can become much more enjoyable, the reason to do it (or not) can become "because of 'the hang' ", one can laugh off any over-the-top displays, words, or lack of respect, and - if it becomes too tedious - it can become optional...even to the point of (simply) not showing up for the next service...ie. "I suddenly felt very ill", and (the following week or subscription series) "I've decided that I need to spend more time with my family" (etc.)

Don't get me wrong...
I'm perfectly happy with my misc./optional freeway philharmonic gigs...but I don't view them as part of "who I am"... (only) part of "what I do".

I suppose (if the symphony orchestra "non-profit" industry somehow continues to exist) that any conservatory students (who might be reading my "toxic" post, here) understand what the deal is - if/when they get hired by an outfit.
Management isn't there for the music.
The board isn't there for the music.
(Unless the musicians are extremely lucky) the MD isn't there for the music.
It's not a perennial "all-state/honor band", but more like a perennial pizza delivery job (without the car, and without the pizza).

[Tubeast]

According to this, the interviews of Clavenger, Herseth, Kleinhammer and Jacobs that are all over Youtube celebrating how they set out to come up with "that Chicago Brass Sound" (insert any dream team and orchestra of Your personal choice) are just out there to keep "the sheep" motivated...

Same goes with descriptions of the development in musical relationship between Karajan and Anne Sophie Mutter during her formative years.
(Just watched a 1 hr special on that one, including interviews with accompanying string players and the violinist herself)

What I´m trying to say is:
While Bloke´s observation may be correct, it may still be beneficial to a pro musician´s sanity to look out for those people who actually ARE there for the sake of music and team up with THOSE. The effect MIGHT be, that other professionals are kept motivated to do THEIR part of the business, which may be creating performing opportunities for all those who can produce art, but not revenue.

Successful "giants of culture" (musicians among them) are perfectly manipulating their surroundings to create a "need" for THEIR art.
Enough so that less manipulative, egocentrical and narcissistic, but potentially more skillful artists will devote a lifetime of hard work to actually pull it off and make it happen.
And, even more important, enough so that money-saturated patrons are willing to engage their wealth and pay for the whole party. (Counting money may get boring after a while, Y´know?)

Wagner was a prime example. No society NEEDS an opera house in the middle of nowhere to be used for THE SINGLE performance of the Ring Cycle.
(Myth has it that the Bayreuth Festspielhaus was to be destroyed after that premiere, and the Ring was never to be performed again.
But I understand that was just a PR-trick of Wagner´s to motivate others to step in and keep the whole enterprise alive)

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[bloke]

I started out attempting to make this post more concise than the original one, but I ended up going on and on, and I apologize.

When I play for these various "freeway philharmonics" (a few thousand here, a few thousand over there, and a few more thousand yet over there), I'm not looking to be patted on the head by the music director, I'm not looking for management to come up to me and ask me what they can do to make things more wonderful for me, and I'm not asking the board to include me in their discussions regarding which "directions" the orchestra is to be encouraged to go. Again, I'm looking for personal enjoyment, and I'm lucky enough to have some great colleagues who make the experience fun, I used the term, "the hang"... and I don't make the mistake on relying on this income. I realize that I'm being redundant, but I'm saying the same things in a slightly different way (and with fewer words) so that perhaps I'm being more clear/concise.

Finally (and I realize this may be water under the bridge for some, but), I never made the mistake of racking up six figures of educational debt, and certainly not for an industry such as this one, where there are few financial rewards.

Some of the semi-celebrity players - who were mentioned in another post in this thread - are said to have told others that they stayed on in their positions for well into their old age because - as they approached old age - their jobs were finally starting to pay something resembling a living wage. Today's trend is pointing back strongly in the opposite direction. A close relative of mine plays in an orchestra that is right up there with the so-called Big Five, and is an orchestra that receives very strong commmunity support (not on the level of a professional sports team, but strong). Over the last several years - and even with hyperinflation, they have received two pay reductions, and no pay restorations after either one. Orchestra boards and management are bringing in negotiating specialists who are known for their talents in putting orchestra musicians salaries on chopping blocks, and that orchestra brought one of those in. The less musicians are paid - obviously, the less hard boards have to work in their fundraising efforts, and the more money might be left over for their pet projects (which might be made to be under the auspices of the orchestra) that don't have a whole lot to do with the orchestra itself... so orchestra musician salaries are cut even as funding goes up. (Again, if musicians have day jobs that create strong revenue, they don't have to pay a whole lot of attention to this stuff, or go on strike, or any of that sort of mess. Simply, if things get too silly, they can just walk away - as long as they don't view their orchestra job as part of their personal identity, which was the main point of the original post.)

[tokuno]

Thank you, Bloke, I intend to share your insights & advice with my kids to (at their discretion) in turn share with their peers, a number of whom are pursuing undergraduate & postgraduate degrees in music.
I played a two-set gig that included a very skilled (and young - I'd guess early twenties) harpist (she also works as an organist/pianist). Between sets, I encountered her sitting on the floor busily writing papers amidst a pile of text books, and inquired after her activity. Her response: "I need a backup; I'm tracking to earn my CPA". Evidently not only skilled, but also smart & wise.

[bloke]

I spent a ton on my own daughter's music conservatory education, but this was back when I was making a good bit of money, and physically capable in regards to working crazy-hard and getting by on four hours of sleep continuously.

This was back when eBay was in its infancy, and I was buying beat-up sousaphones, restoring them, and pushing to get one sold each month.
The revenue from that was keeping up with the monthly tuition payments. I'm thinking her husband went the student loan route, which - I'm thinking - was somewhat of a hardship (payments) for several years.

She's raising three children (exponentially more important than playing music) and might play a few engagements each year, though she's completely capable (any part of an orchestral work, or any standard rep. concerto on her instrument) of subbing in her husband's orchestra.

[Mary Ann]

The advantage of (most, but not all) community groups is that we play for fun. Locally, many of them have gotten in their heads that they want to upgrade their quality and expand where they play, and they are actually losing some good players over that. People who don't WANT to travel an hour and a half to play somewhere on a day that is not a usual performance day. People who don't like the absolutely silly harangues about things that are not going to change because of the overall level of the group. So people go from the group they don't like to one they like better, but it seems to be a common factor here now, that they ALL are trying to upgrade themselves and there are only so many fine players to go around, even in a city this size, and when you tell one of those fine players that now you have a full audition requirement to join, they don't. And some of those fine players find they have had enough and just quit, because face it, community players are not paid, and the hassle is not worth it.

[Three Valves]

It's not a perennial "all-state/honor band", but more like a perennial pizza delivery job (without the car, and without the pizza).

Comedy gold!

[bloke]

If the salary renegotiation tactics are true, then this is likely because management is assuming that orchestra players of merit have no options and that the talent pool is deep.

This is plausible given the current situation. Supply and demand curves are real things.

[bloke]

If the salary renegotiation tactics are true, then this is likely because management is assuming that orchestra players of merit have no options and that the talent pool is deep.

This is plausible given the current situation. Supply and demand curves are real things.

...and that they are so addicted to associating themselves with a "position" that they will stay, no matter what.

Every customer (service or merchandise) of mine is a separate "gig", with which/whom I can continue on or dismiss.
I look at extended/annually-renewable gigs (orchestra jobs) the same way...and even one-subscription-series-to-the-next, and even one-service-to-the-next. If things get ridiculous, I can accept a good bit of it, because everyone's human, everyone loses their patience (particularly perfectionists - and I LIKE striving towards perfection), and things come out of everyone's mouth that shouldn't, but - if that's how things "go" service-in/service-out...that's just too ridiculous...OR if the pay becomes so epically low that I can no longer afford to let my $XYZ-paying repair work sit for several hours while I'm only making $ABC playing tunes on the tuba, well...I would need to let management know that "I need to spend more time with my family".

I LIKE playing tunes and creating pretty-sounding chords with others via playing the tuba, but it's got to NOT defy logic too-TOO much to take time out to do that stuff.

bloke "One music director in particular I really enjoy. When that one becomes frustrated with someone's (or some-more-than-one's) playing in a rehearsal (that may be the second or even third rehearsal for a show), they might say, "Well...We don't want to peak too soon, do we now?"