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British brass band music is scored for Eb and Bb basses. My brass band has six tuba players now, and only one of us is using an Eb or Bb tuba. At the 1st annual Texas Brass Fest (which I enjoyed a lot), I saw that even the fancier bands in the state have some non-regulation tubas. Seems to work fine.

So, how much does it matter? One of our cornet players, at a break, said something like

"We really should make sure we're using Eb tubas instead of F. They're supposed to sound more like tubby euphoniums than tubas. Maybe the band should buy a set."

Maybe we should be playing Eb tubas, but surely that's not enough to guarantee the "right" sound. I spent a few minute's with Mike Lynch's YFB-621 a while back, and it seemed a lot like a big euphonium (fun!). And lots of modern Eb tubas advertise a contrabass sound, right?

Is this just a Bb vs. C question? (Does this forum already have one of those?)

I sometimes think the whole “this key tuba is better for this rep or that rep” is borderline mumbo jumbo. I will say, for me, Bb treble clef is easier to play on Bb tuba so I would probably choose that key of horn if I were to play with a brass band again.

Compared to other brass, tubas are just so damn expensive that it's often a matter of "play what you've got". Sure, the "ideal" sound is supposed to be 2 big compensating BBb's and 2 compensating Eb's. Some bands own these, and some players own these. With most of us who are not collectors of instruments, there's less choice. I switched to a compensating Eb for brass band, and It's not the ideal instrument for concert band, but I make do.

NABBA rules allow for Eb and Bb bass parts to be played by tubas in any key. I've seen a lot of bands that have only CC and F tubas, and they can have a great sound even with the entire rest of the band in Bb and Eb. I've seen bands that have nothing but BBb and CC tubas playing all the parts, and they can still sound good. I've seen great bands with four tubas in BBb, CC, Eb, and F.

The heart of the matter is that it all depends on the players and their abilities to play in tune and with appropriate tones.

There's nothing wrong with tradition(s)...no?

Sousaphones for marching bands, contras (though they suck, but that's their business) for corps, top-action compensating B-flat and E-flat basses for brass bands...and - if really embracing tradition - 15" bell E-flats and 17" - 19" bell B-flats, very large rotary B-flats for continental European orchestras, C tubas for kolij (etc., etc...)

Nothing wrong with tradition, if you can afford it. (and I'm not fond of contras, either)

Use what you have and play it well. That said someone wouldn’t play the Euphonium part on a Trombone or a Baritone (Bb horn) ‘cause it would sound less well and whilst an Eb Bass can cover the Bass Trombone part it doesn’t sound right - it’s just usefully better than nothing. Similarly using a flugelhorn to play the solo cornet part wouldn’t work - it’s just usefully better than nothing. Instruments have evolved over time and there are historical reasons - which might be worked around - why brass bands use Eb and Bb instruments.

Tubas are very expensive so if F and C tubas will work, ‘cause they’re near enough and you/we have some very clever players, then use them - as they say ‘the proof of the pudding is in the eating’. On the other hand I’d be reluctant to try to play a BBb part on an Eb Bass; perhaps it would be possible - with care it probably is - but just because something’s possible doesn’t mean that it should be done, etc. … or something like that.

… duplicate in error

I don't have very much money right now, but if there were actually a high level performing brass band being formed here - and someone asked me to play the E-flat tuba part, I would sell something or find some way to get some money to get a 15 inch bell 4-valve compensating E flat tuba (perhaps a used, or an Asian-made instrument, and ordering a 15 inch YEB-321 bell for it ??), or at least an eBay 3-valve compensating.

A few people here probably are really close to not having the ability to pay their rent or keep their car running, but I'm pretty sure that the reason that most people here don't have more expensive tubas or a wider selection of tubas is because their interests and strongest passions lie elsewhere, as far as their disposable income is concerned. Some people probably show up with righthand-pointing F tubas and use photographic transposing programs to transpose their treble clef music to bass clef, but that's really not how it's done, either.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 7:37 am I don't have very much money right now, but if there were actually a high level performing brass band being formed here - and someone asked me to play the E-flat tuba part, I would sell something or find some way to get some money to get a 15 inch bell 4-valve compensating E flat tuba (perhaps a used, or an Asian-made instrument, and ordering a 15 inch YEB-321 bell for it ??), or at least an eBay 3-valve compensating.

A few people here probably are really close to not having the ability to pay their rent or keep their car running, but I'm pretty sure that the reason that most people here don't have more expensive tubas or a wider selection of tubas is because their interests and strongest passions lie elsewhere, as far as their disposable income is concerned. Some people probably show up with righthand-pointing F tubas and use photographic transposing programs to transpose their treble clef music to bass clef, but that's really not how it's done, either.

Are you saying that a Norwegian Star is not the right thing? And that a Petruschka is even less the right thing?

I think that tradition came from the whole clef thing of "anyone can play anything using fingerings that work for all." If you don't need to do that, then the sky's the limit. In school situations where everybody comes up through a band program and starts on Bb instruments and learns to play "by fingering," then it all makes sense. If the background is wider than that, and people can read a clef that doesn't represent a fingering chart, then you will find any key of tuba works as long as the players make them sound like tubas. In a competition setting, perhaps it matters to the judges what is being played.
The only other thing I can think of would be that same-key instruments would have the same intonation characteristics, and that might matter, but only if those instruments can't be played in tune with un-like instruments. Tube length for an in-tune F# is tube length for an in-tune F#.

It's nice to have matching intonation tendencies. It is HARD to make a large number of tubas sound good. B52 noises...whose sharp and whose flat...it never ends.

I was a traditionalist until I realized the eb and bb of the same maker don't have the same tendencies. At that point I threw up my hands and switched to "run what you brung"

I wonder if I can run off with this thread, since we're talking about sound. The contra player in the brass band who is on the Yamaha, has what I will call a "growly" sound, and in some ways you can't easily discern what pitch is being played, but it is kind of cool. It isn't that mellow sound that I usually characterize as a "tuba sound." Then, a couple weeks ago when I encountered the guy with the Firebird, he was getting that exact same "growly sound" out of the low range of IT. Once again, same impression, kind of cool sounding but not sure I'd have been able to transcribe pitches played really fast, which is where "that sound" is most prominent. So the question is, Is that something to try to replicate? Both these guys are college-tuba-educated, and both can play rings around me in terms of speed. They both sound like bears having a fight in fast low passages (low being below the staff.) With the Firebird, I know for sure it isn't the tuba -- it's the player.

I'm not berating an opinion, but "matching intonation tendencies" could (yes? no?) end up being the road to hell...

ex:
"All of us play E-flat sharp without correction and are in tune with each other, so it must be "good", but the rest of the band..."

What has always struck me about the British Brass bands in the homogenous blend of their sound. And if I'm not mistaken everything is either Eb or Bb....and mostly Bessons. No doubt four great players can play the different bass parts on anything and make it work just fine but the Black Dyke and other top band's bass sections are a (to me) unique sound that sets up all of the upper instruments. When they were putting together the Central Florida Brass Band I got about 30 phone calls wanting me to participate but knowing most all the tuba people here and what they would bring to the table, plus, it doesn't pay, I passed and never regretted it. A few years into it the leader who is a good friend, was telling me that he didn't like the way the tubas sounded although they are all fine players and I went into the Eb and Bb spiel and I guess they went out and bought a set(maybe Kanstul) and last I heard everybody was happy. Again though, as stated above since it don't pay, you bring what you got. Happy banding to all . Ed

British-style brass bands feature military-style uniforms, (again) strong traditions, a bunch of rules, playing contests, winning, and the like.
Things with a whole bunch of rules and traditions should probably follow those rules and traditions, in order to be those things...
...though (since the 1960's) all tendencies in all things have been towards informality and rule/tradition abandonment.

People getting dressed up - in particular ways, for particular events - and behaving in certain ways also used to be a "thing".
I view those things (of the past - abandoned) as having been pretty good things...ie. "cultural", etc.

jtm wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am

bloke wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 7:37 am I don't have very much money right now, but if there were actually a high level performing brass band being formed here - and someone asked me to play the E-flat tuba part, I would sell something or find some way to get some money to get a 15 inch bell 4-valve compensating E flat tuba (perhaps a used, or an Asian-made instrument, and ordering a 15 inch YEB-321 bell for it ??), or at least an eBay 3-valve compensating.

A few people here probably are really close to not having the ability to pay their rent or keep their car running, but I'm pretty sure that the reason that most people here don't have more expensive tubas or a wider selection of tubas is because their interests and strongest passions lie elsewhere, as far as their disposable income is concerned. Some people probably show up with righthand-pointing F tubas and use photographic transposing programs to transpose their treble clef music to bass clef, but that's really not how it's done, either.

Are you saying that a Norwegian Star is not the right thing? And that a Petruschka is even less the right thing?

I like the big-bell (19-inch) compensating E-flats, because their sound passes for contrabass, YET they are more nimble.

It's difficult to find a 15" bell compensating E-flat (either new or good condition), but (at least, to me) if the B-flats and E-flats - in a brass band - all have large bells, then they might as well all be the same thing.

The part number for a 15-inch YEB-321 bell (which probably fits into the bottom bow receiver of most compensating E-flat tubas...??) is H3630510 (brass) and H3630518 (silver)

I play in a brass band all the time. We have a mix. The band owns compensating Eb’s for those that don’t have a horn or prefer to use their own horn. We’ve also got those front-piston compensating BBb’s that one may use as well if playing BBb.

I will say, I am literally the only person in that group with a rotary instrument. Does anybody care or notice besides me? Not at all. Play what you’ve got and play it well, nobody will care.

edfirth wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:09 am What has always struck me about the British Brass bands in the homogenous blend of their sound. And if I'm not mistaken everything is either Eb or Bb....and mostly Bessons. No doubt four great players can play the different bass parts on anything and make it work just fine but the Black Dyke and other top band's bass sections are a (to me) unique sound that sets up all of the upper instruments. When they were putting together the Central Florida Brass Band I got about 30 phone calls wanting me to participate but knowing most all the tuba people here and what they would bring to the table, plus, it doesn't pay, I passed and never regretted it. A few years into it the leader who is a good friend, was telling me that he didn't like the way the tubas sounded although they are all fine players and I went into the Eb and Bb spiel and I guess they went out and bought a set(maybe Kanstul) and last I heard everybody was happy. Again though, as stated above since it don't pay, you bring what you got. Happy banding to all . Ed

I’m in agreement with the above but just want to add a little to it. Historically virtually nobody in a Brass Band owned their own instrument, the players were financially poor and if the Band hadn’t supplied instruments then there would have been no players. When I started to play an instrument was supplied for me to learn on and, as long as I stayed with the band, I’d have been able to keep it - and they’d have paid for repairs too. Indeed, without that aid / arrangement I could never have started to play, my parents just didn’t have any spare money and fortunately the lessons were free too. One result of all band instruments being the property of the band was that they were purchased as a purposefully matched set both by section and overall in the band. Another was that we had to do a lot of public playing to raise funds for the band.

These days many players, the bulk of them I would say, have their own instrument(s) and use them in Band. Of course a band, and particularly a higher quality one, might insist that players use matched instruments such that common sound(s) are ‘ensured’ and blend together.

I’m biased but in my view the bass section of a band provides the sound on which the band is supported, the foundation which we lay is important. Bring what you’ve got is what I roll with, but I’m not a high class player in a high class band. My most important task is to play the music well - what really good players do anyway - and the finer details of tone fade into insignificance compared to that … though it’s nice that there’s another Eb Sovereign on the section too, when the part isn’t split we can sound quite good, blending even, in unison. Indeed that’s what’s needed of the whole section, that we are not individuals but rather a team who make a blended sound - apologies but that blending and team concept might not come easy to others.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 7:37 am use photographic transposing programs to transpose their treble clef music to bass clef, but that's really not how it's done, either.

Wait, is this a thing? Sounds amazing for us wanna be brass band players who never learned how to read anything other than Bass clef very well.

gnimoyw wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 1:21 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 7:37 am use photographic transposing programs to transpose their treble clef music to bass clef, but that's really not how it's done, either.

Wait, is this a thing? Sounds amazing for us wanna be brass band players who never learned how to read anything other than Bass clef very well.

A flat scanner and the right music notation software and there ya go. And, of course, a printer.

Here's a rundown on what's available:

https://fixthephoto.com/best-music-scan ... tware.html