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I'm old enough to have watched quite a few band directors move from middle school to college graduates to middle-aged band directors.

We didn't have all of these cool electronic and computerized learning aids in the 1960's and 1970's...I wish we did...They're pretty amazing.

I believe I'm noticing that - they "rub off" on those who use them to teach (and how could they not?).

As far as "band directors who perform", I've noticed (in particular, their tuning, as gigs aren't much of a set of places to demonstrate any real technical prowess) that - as they've matured, many of them - in regards to tuning - has moved up from B to B+ and on up to A or even A+.

Obviously, I sit closest to trombonists...and - sure, most of the time - I'm mostly working with people who only play and studio-teach, but there are some band directors (particularly "church" gigs during the high-demand seasons) who end up in the mix.

My theory is that those electronic teaching devices (as well as the required accompanying teacher correction and discernment) "rub off" on the teachers.

I suspect that (as I don't have very much time to actually sit down and "practice") most of them certainly don't either.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, here. Mostly (having walked in on school rehearsals to pick-up/deliver repairs), I find all of those teaching programs to be pretty amazing.

postscript:
Being primarily a guitarist throughout those years, I really believe that "constantly tuning guitars" and "discovering more-and-better ways to tune them" - which (in my learning process) eventually included TEMPERING their tuning, I believe that (much more that "playing in band") is what helped me to learn - in general - about "tuning"...and tuning a bass or a bass guitar is a thousand times easier than tuning a 6-string guitar (which plays chords, etc.), whereas "tuning a THREE-valve tuba" is semi-hopeless. To the main topic: I'm not sure how much these electronic and computer programs (designed for large bands) get into "tempering" (ie. 3rds/6ths/etc.), but - unquestionably - they offer tremendous advantages and "power-boosts" towards good tuning.

I'd be happy if band directors stop tuning brass players to concert F.

LeMark wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:44 am I'd be happy if band directors stop tuning brass players to concert F.

yeah...
I dont' much care for "blah-blah-pitch is the center of the universe" mentality...either in bands (with B-flat's) or orchestras (with A's).

sidebar about professional orchestra concerts:

CONCERT BEGINS AT 7:30...
...so what do you get?
The orchestra's CEO/ED coming out, yattering about this/that/the-other/giving-money, parading muckity-mucks out and THEN FINALLY announcing, "AND NOW: YOUR _________ SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA !!!"

...with the super-anti-climactic thing (not being the beginning of the first piece, but) a friggin' TUNING NOTE.

bloke "professional orchestras tuning - 'because it's traditional' is stupid. Professional orchestras (certainly not with tuners in everyone's phones) do NOT need to tune (ie. fiddle around with their instruments)."

also:
That CEO blather needs to BEGIN at 7:25 and END by 7:29:55.

One of the best in tune recordings I know is the Gabrieli recording of Chicago, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. Abe Torchinsky pointed out they never remembered tuning before.

I think as recordings get better, we hear tuning better, and adjust better. I have brought up with students that their generation is much better in tune than any other.

I champion tradition vigorously, but I judge the orchestra tuning thing to be annoying nonsense (for the reasons that I previously posted and even more - including the existence of HVAC, as just one more reason).

AGAIN:
Let the CEO yatter serve as a way for barely-latecomers to be seated.

Tuning and tubas, well the two don’t sit easily together, but maybe that’s a very amateur view if born of experience … and then there’s getting a tuner that responds in the lower bass range.

I try to tune the second, third and fourth harmonics but none line up exactly so it’s a case of doing your best. The only brass that is usually able to be in tune is the trombones; one uses ears to finely adjust the position of the (main) slide and when the harmonics don’t line up it doesn’t matter (‘cause, if you can hear it, you just move the slide a bit). Valves, well they’re a set of compromise lengths and only bound to disappoint the perfectionist. Three none comp valves are going to have some notes playing sharp, four valves helps but it’s a case of either be happy with what you can do or learn to shift valve slides as you play - I’m happy to leave them fixed with the first and third slides set up slight flat (which nobody notices).

Tuning before a performance, well I guess it’s a show and now for show - historical reasons barely apply. Do your tuning at home and maybe check it (with a clip on device) back-stage. We all have A440 pitch electronic tuners so IMHO there’s barely any reason, other than show and laziness, to be tuning on stage. But, of course, I could be completely wrong …

LOL...
If I'm tuning a Besson B-flat instrument, I tend to try to tune a whole bunch of stuff on either side of the middle, and (well, as to that 6th partial E-flat) I sorta pretend as though that pitch doesn't exist.

One of the bands I play in (for now) has a 1st clarinet "concertmaster" who gets up and harangues the band about tuning for a good ten, and sometimes fifteen, minutes at the beginning of every single rehearsal, and sometimes even after the break. But does zero teaching on HOW to play in tune, no mention of beats, no mention of how different chords require different adjustments, and it is slowly driving me nuts. As well as every other single person I have talked to about it. And he has started picking on individuals who, if they could hear what they are doing wrong, would have fixed it, and embarrassing them in front of the band is not fixing it either.

What's most interesting is the conductor of the New Horizons Band, which is made up of definitely non-experts, has started to teach exactly those things mentioned above. Who is going to have the better sounding band?

LeMark wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:44 am I'd be happy if band directors stop tuning brass players to concert F.

Mine (college concert band) has us tune to A.

and he’s a trombonist...

York-aholic wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:22 pm

LeMark wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:44 am I'd be happy if band directors stop tuning brass players to concert F.

Mine (college concert band) has us tune to A.

and he’s a trombonist...

Well, as much good as tuning does as an exercise onstage , it might as well be a C sharp or anything. Again, people (should) know where their instruments tune based on 65°, 70°, 75°, 80° and so forth... and how various tuning quirks appear at those various environmental temperature levels. Further, everyone either has a phone app or a $15 chromatic tuner, with which they can goof around backstage before taking their seat onstage and sitting quietly for the last three or four minutes before the concert begins, and without someone - other than the music director (but preferably no one) - coming out and running their mouth.

Two of the three groups I play with regularly tune to my Bb. Do I use a tuner? Never. It must be close enough, I guess.

If it's fourth partial - and also happens to be reliable, most fourth partials are relatively stable on brass instruments. I guess - to use words that some people use - fourth partials tend to slot more narrowly than other partials.

Finally, I believe humans can memorize pitches. I believe that this is common, and makes more sense than this perfect pitch thing - which doesn't really make sense to me. For many years, I had e natural memorized, because I tuned guitars so very often. I've tried it in recent times, and still usually hit it almost on the nose.

LeMark wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:44 am I'd be happy if band directors stop tuning brass players to concert F.

I did a clinic for a very mediocre band whose director had those little electronic tuners strapped to every single instrument. Every few minutes, he would say, "check your concert F". After a few rounds of this, I told him, "The F is fine; all the other notes are out of tune. Maybe you should check those, too." Then I pointed out to the students that on a unison concert C, the flutes would be sharp while the trumpets are flat and both would have to adjust. The director looked at me like I had invented band. I started teaching in the mid 70s and at some point, as bloke points out, directors stopped teaching kids how to use their ears to tune.

I'm not aware of this F tuning thing, but I do walk in on some bands that are using drones and moving around on different chords, and those sure seem to work...
... and they sound just as good when they turn those things off, too. I guess it depends on the band director, the band, and how and what devices and programs they use and how they use them.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:01 pm If it's fourth partial - and also happens to be reliable, most fourth partials are relatively stable on brass instruments. I guess - to use words that some people use - fourth partials tend to slot more narrowly than other partials.

That could be handy, though in Brass Bands we tend to tune to Bb as produced by the Principle Cornet. His middle C in transposed treble clef and middle G (in TTC) for the Eb instruments (‘cause, IIRC, that gives Bb in concert pitch). I don’t worry about it too much ‘cause the basses grumble around in the basement and folk don’t seem as precious about perfection from us.

Partials, harmonics, alien terms to me and I get easily confused about what’s what - if I was smart then they’d have me playing a Cornet not a Tuba :-) . Now, for an Eb bass I’m guessing that the fourth partial is concert Eb in the middle of the stave. Yes? If so then that’s helpful, thanks.

It’s interesting that some Band Directors think that if you get one note in tune with the rest of the group that all others will follow. That stance is a start but no more than that. I check for the open note tunings (the partials, only some of which line up) and then for each valve and valve combinations.

Berating folk for not playing in tune is, I think, unwise. Helping folk to do better and certainly ensuring that they have the tools and experience to do better is, IMHO, much more sensible. On occasion I’ve had cross words with music folk who bully others, mostly such characters are trying to be helpful (to the group) but simply need firm but friendly and gentle correction.

Your no-valves 4th partial is 2nd line B-flat - bass clef - B-flat tuba.
===≈===
@Mary Ann's 1st clarinetist...
again: I wouldn't mind hanging over their shoulder with a microphone/tuner to determine just how much of their chiding and other rhetoric is psychological projection.

I've stated many times that - if (??) - my tuning is "pretty good", it's because I work on it pretty diligently. Again, I believe tuning is learned, and is something that needs to be continuously reinforced. So-called "perfect pitch" people are likely people who remember pitches more easily and for a longer period of time. The B.S. regarding this is that "perfect" tuning involves playing every pitch in one's range +/- at least 20c, depending on the application.

I remember (1st guitar string) e, because that open-string frequency never changes. (I learned it at about 330 hz - barely above "equal temperament", but - yet - still slightly "flat" - in the perfect interval - to the A below it. (As a teenager - somewhat maniacally - I would strike an e tuning fork, put it to my ear, and "think about" that pitch - through homework, TV programs, driving or biking somewhere, or what have you... I always judged that "having to rely on a device" was silly, so I set out to - again - learn that e.)

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:34 pm Your no-valves 4th partial is 2nd line B-flat - bass clef - B-flat tuba.
===≈===
@Mary Ann's 1st clarinetist...
again: I wouldn't mind hanging over their shoulder with a microphone/tuner to determine just how much of their chiding and other rhetoric is psychological projection.

I've stated many times that - if (??) - my tuning is "pretty good", it's because I work on it pretty diligently. Again, I believe tuning is learned, and is something that needs to be continuously reinforced. So-called "perfect pitch" people are likely people who remember pitches more easily and for a longer period of time. The B.S. regarding this is that "perfect" tuning involves playing every pitch in one's range +/- at least 20c, depending on the application.

I remember (1st guitar string) e, because that open-string frequency never changes.

Thanks, that’s just what I thought it would be for a BBb in concert pitch and bass clef. In transposed treble clef that (pitch) would be a middle C for a BBb.

Guitars and fretted instruments are interesting, and actually I’ve learnt an awful lot about music from playing around on a Ukulele - apparently they’re very popular. Such an admission must make me, at best, a fourth rate musician but I’ll settle for that and just get on with having fun and learning as I go.

As brass players we too often tend to concentrate on our own notes and have little to no feel for how they structure with what our colleagues are doing. Though, to be fair, Tubas are loud and listening past our own (dominant) sound presents challenges. In contrast on a Guitar the player controls and produces chords, rhythms and melody lines and is well aware of interaction between the strings, slight changes in intonation are noticed and the player hears each string at - near enough - equal volume.

Interestingly a Guitar can be tuned to itself (get one string near enough right and tune the others to it) and maybe folk should be more concerned (interested) with that concept. The concept of relative rather than absolute tuning and of how music is (primarily) made by relative pitches rather than absolute pitches. ‘A’ has not always been at 440 Hz and some of the music that we play today was originally played against a different reference pitch frequency to very happy audiences. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_p ... rd%20pitch.

Isn’t tuning just like the flicker of the house lights to tell people something’s going on?

@2nd tenor

- My first instrument - which was given to me around age 4 - was a pressed board ukulele. The frets were all wrong because it was a toy, and my brother - who was nearly 13 years older - tore off the fretboard and made a replacement one out of heavy poster board and toothpicks (clipped off to the correct widths, with the points cut off) whereby the frets were the correct spacing and locations. Those - other than trying to pick out the things that my 10-year-older sister was being taught in her piano lessons on the piano - during the previous year) were my first experiences with tuning and with learning songs and playing them.

- The reference pitch "A" has been at quite a few places across the western world over the centuries, according to historians and according to old instruments. My understanding is that the tuning in and around the time and place of Bach was just about almost exactly a semitone lower than where we are today. The "Hallelujah Chorus", I suppose, should really be played in D flat major, and the highest soprano and piccolo trumpet pitches would be a little bit easier to reach then, wouldn't they?

I honestly don't get this A=442 jazz. What's the point (unless it's simply supposed to address everyone's natural tendency to play sharp when they are trying to hear themselves and when they begin to get tired) ? When I'm playing very low pitches on the tuba in these A=442 (whether official or de facto) ensembles, they usually sound a little bit better, more resonant, and more foundational when played at the A=440 reference level, for the same reason that flat pitches in the very bottom of the piano range improve the sound of the piano ("perfect" 5ths and 12ths - above the pitches that I play, which tend to be tonics - tend to ring more). Whether I'm right or wrong, or whether I'm perceiving properly or not perceiving things properly, at least I'm thinking and trying...LOL

The tuning sequence of any drum corps is more entertaining than most bands' actual performances.