more on: no longer owning a C tuba

[bloke]

I just did some valve and dent repairs on a friend's model 188 Miraphone, and then played it afterwards. I experienced just about exactly the same thing as with the model 186 Miraphone C (wonderful instrument) which I sold to Bill. When I went back and forth with my F tuba and both of those C tubas - using the F tuba mouthpiece and then using a contrabass tuba mouthpiece, both of those C tubas sounded just about the same as my F tuba with the same mouthpieces, and - honestly - felt about the same as well.

I've already been awakened to the fact that 6/4 B-flats often put out a much more interesting and more resonant type of sound vs. equivalent quality and even sister model (such as Holton 345 C/B-flat) 6/4 C tubas.

I don't think I'm betraying a confidence here, because I wasn't told to keep this a secret or anything like that. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people know that Gene uses a BMB (I'm guessing: with 5th valve rubber band in good condition) 6/4 B-flat in Chicago. He has told me that (and I'm thinking more often than not) Mr. Vernon asks him to play the B-flat as opposed to the $40,000 C tuba or the God's-gift-to-the-C-tuba-realm instrument, which is owned by the orchestra.

(... I've actually been considering doubling back around and picking up a 188 - just so I will have a C tuba, but this little test convinced me that I just don't need any C tubas... particularly since I have this really compact Holton 4/4 B-flat with 5 (4+1) valves, which plays so well.)
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(I've met Mr Vernon, and have been to his home for a party, but it was a long time ago and I don't assume that he would remember me, so I'm uncomfortable using his first name.)

[jtm]

Hmmm. My 188 does not sound like even a 4/4 BBb of similar size (an old 186, in this case) -- not as deep sounding as the BBb. But it also does not sound like the F tuba that's here to compare it with. Like, not even almost the same. Maybe my F tuba is insufficiently contrabassy.

I sure won't insist that you need a C tuba. Of course you don't. But if even I can hear the difference, that suggests that you just wanted there to not be a difference. Like brass band players that get by with a rotary F.

[bloke]

I've kept this particular F tuba - the first one that I ever bought - for over four decades (after trying nearly every new model that's ever been introduced) for some really valid reasons. I've actually BOUGHT (not inexpensive) some new models of F tubas SIMPLY to try them out - as they never made appearances in elephant rooms. (and sure: I bought them when they were priced low enough so that I knew for certain that I could flip them without being harmed financially.)

It really sounds a lot (give the same mouthpiece) like the old handmade 186 C tubas, but (though they aren't a ton larger) I was surprised how it also sounds quite similar (again: given the same mouthpiece) to a 188...

...and even "feels" quite a bit the same...

We've all heard how people describe the 188 low range with words such as "narrow slots", "difficult", or (even) "stuffy"...??
The so-called low range feels very similar to my F tuba's low range, whereby (simply) my lips have to buzz precisely at the frequency defined by the length of the instrument, and (also) I can't just sit there and "over-blow" the thing (as is easy to do with instruments such as small tenor trombones, valve trombones, English baritones, etc.) and expect it to behave. I CAN - though - "trick" the thing's low range into playing LOUDER and with MORE IMMEDIACY that some seem to be able to get out of such instruments by (for lack of a better term...??) "sliding" the air into it (and I have no way - with words - of accurately describing this).

again: I LIKE my friend's 188, but (simply) don't need it - as so much of what it does duplicates what my F tuba does (as would a vintage 186).
...and any bigger C tuba (again) won't be able to compete effectively - in "broadness" - with my (bigger) B-flat tuba.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[Grumpikins]

Interesting topic. I'm just curious about the centering of certain notes on the Bb horn.

My old king is difficult to center on notes between Dd and up in the staff. Above the staff is easier. Notes below C under the staff don't speak well either.

When I switch to my Cc tuba, all of the stated notes pop with pinpoint laser accuracy.

I had thought that my chops were horribly out of shape (they are) but this is what I found with the horns side by side.

I'm guessing that this is because my old king is just that, an old factory horn unmodified.

I pose this question because I do not have a Bb horn comparable in manufacture (quality, modern tech, metallurgy, r and d) to my Cc available at this time for comparison myself.

So is this centering noticeable on Bb horns across the board? Or is it (most likely) specific to my old horn?

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[UncleBeer]

Interesting. I already do about 70% of my gigging on my BAT Eb, but I'm thinking of shifting even more that direction. Seeing less and less need for the blast-o-phone.

[LeMark]

If I owned your Eb, I would never play another tuba in my life

Personally, I find the farther away I get from a BBb tuba, the most clarity and responsiveness I get from the instrument. A medium sized CC to a Large Eb is the sweet spot for me for tone and playability

[UncleBeer]

If I owned your Eb, I would never play another tuba in my life

Awwww. Best horn I've ever played.

[LeMark]

SAME

[LargeTuba]

Id like to note that whenever the CSO played any big tuba rep this season, Mr. Pokorny almost always used the York not the BBb.

[NapoleonWilson]

I bought a Meinl Weston Fafner 195P a while back. I LOVE the way my 6450/2 handles, but I prefer the depth of sound that comes out of the Bb.

Been doing the relearning Bb thing for a bit. Kopprasch, Bordogni, Bordogni 8vb, Arban, Tyrell with a handful of excerpts thrown in for good measure. A few months in and I’m a little surprised at how comfortable I am on the Fafner. Makes quite a bit of stuff easier. And for reasons I don’t totally understand, I really appreciate the response of the Fafner much more than I expected.

I don’t know what the future holds, but aside from a cleaning at the shop, my 6450/2 hasn’t been out of its case since the last concert of the season in mid April.

[bloke]

Id like to note that whenever the CSO played any big tuba rep this season, Mr. Pokorny almost always used the York not the BBb.

I completely believe you, and I bet it depends on the piece, and maybe the key the piece is in. After all, most ("way most") orchestral pieces are in D or B minor or A or E, or keys such as those - fiddle keys.

This is something he told me months ago.

Even quite a few years ago - when I was studying with him off and on when I could, he would relate C tuba playing to the B-flat tuba in sort of heady quasi-intellectual ways. Even though he never suggested that I do this, some of those comments of his in those lessons ended up encouraging me to play C below the staff with 5-1-3 or 5-4 (3rd partial) a whole bunch of the time, rather than open - to avoid the hollow sound of the open C, much like the very commonly encountered hollow sound of the lower first partial F on an F tuba.

The worst problems with C tubas have to do with playing the worst C tubas, and the worst problems with B-flat tubas surely have to do with playing the worst B-flat tubas, at least this makes sense to me.

@YorkNumber3.0, something that you may very well be completely correct about is the more that I discover the advantages of a really great B-flat tuba, the more I become like one of those obnoxious people who quit smoking (smoking-quitting snobs, shaking their finger at everyone who still smokes) and I might well be morphing into a "B-flat snob" (vs. all the American C tubas snobs). I'll consider that, but I'm currently not interested in going back (unless I stumble upon or end up sticking together something that ends up being really amazing) to something that I now view differently than I did over a year ago - which is that I now view C tubas as being "something in between B-flat and E-flat tubas, which means that they aren't as easy to play as E-flat tubas, and they don't resonate as nicely as B-flat tubas"... making the assumption that any of those to which I refer are really outstanding instruments.

All of that just haven't been said, I still can't help but think back to how dumb it is to play B-flat tubas for 6 or 7 years in grade school, and then have people say to me - and thousands of other high school children - that "If you're going to play tuba in college, you probably ought to get a C tuba"... as with so many things: no whys nor wherefores. We deny that this occurs, but it nearly always occurs...and even though we ourselves claim that we wouldn't suggest this to a high school student, we probably end up suggesting that very thing to one-or-several of them - after telling ourselves (internal rhetoric, and discussion list rhetoric) that the choice of B-flat or C is something that doesn't matter. It's almost like those people who use the rhetorical expression "pro-choice", but you know damn well which choice they are encouraging people to choose.

Whatever. This big change has certainly encouraged me to become more interested in playing again, rather than simply to go somewhere to earn a 100 bucks or 200 bucks or 1,000 bucks or whatever... I'm looking forward to the playing actually more than I am to the money, whereas before it was the other way around.

[bloke]

Tonight was Mrs. bloke's monthly Monday meeting in Memphis - where I often split off and sit in with my friends' Monday community band rehearsals. At home, I'm mostly concentrating on playing this huge two-feet-longer-than-C instrument with finesse etc. etc., but it's really helpful to take it out and play it during a band rehearsal, particularly this time of year with all the patriotic music and marches which all features huge dramatic dynamics contrasts and such, because it allows me to test and learn about the extremes of this instrument (pushing it to, etc.) - not just at the small end but at the large end, and if I barely step over the line I can hear that and learn from having barely stepped over it. I'm lucky to be able to have a place like that that's really friendly to me and lets me come and go. Something else is that the band seems to be rapidly improving lately, and - as they improve - they attract more really good players, so it's particularly nice to be able to sit in with a pretty darn good group to test and learn about this instrument.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

Thankfully not, but I have to pay attention.

[DonO.]

I know this topic comes up here often, and that I’ve told my story more than once, but at the risk of beating the dead horse, here I go again.

The college I ended up attending was small, but with a very good music department reputation. Seven professors covered everything- two pianists, an organist, two vocalists, one brass guy, and one woodwind guy (and one part time emeritus for strings). I started out borrowing a school horn (a big Conn IIRC). My teacher was an excellent trombone player. He said I should start shopping for my own horn. What key that horn should be in was never brought up. When I showed up with a Meinl Weston 25 in BBb, it was not an issue. I didn’t realize it at the time, but much of the REQUIRED solo tuba curriculum would have been so much easier on an F. But for me it was more like, those notes too high for you, son? Then work on that high range! I had the chutzpah to play the Vaughn-Williams on my Bb! Anyway, I managed to get “good enough” to graduate with a music Ed degree (missing performance major standards by just a hair). After working for a number of years as a music teacher, I decided it was time to get a master’s degree. Off topic aside: For those unfamiliar with the world of the teacher, it is often a job requirement that one continues to acquire post graduate college credit. The master’s is not a requirement, but the required hours add up to almost that, so I (and many others) figured that we might as well go ahead and get the degree since having it kicks in a raise in salary which, over time, pays for the tuition plus. So I start working on my master’s in music education at a “big city” university. My private tuba teacher was principal tuba in the local symphony. And he was a BBb player himself, so obviously he has no problem with me being one too! I attended the Army Tuba-Euphonium Conference with him once. I learned that he was well known amongst his colleagues for being a BBb player. So many shook his hand and said “I remember you! You’re that Bb player!”. It was only then that I realized we were both outliers, Bb players in an ocean of CC. He left the university before I could graduate, and he was replaced by a fellow who played in the Air Force Band who was, of course, a CC player. To his credit, he realized that by this point in my playing career there was no point in asking me to switch to CC, so he let me slide. In short, my life circumstances never made it necessary to to consider anything other than Good Old BBb. My entire life, I’ve never even tried to play anything else. And I have to admit it gives me some satisfaction to see BBb having something of a Renaissance.

One time in my life, I asked someone for the reasons for switching to CC. I don’t remember who or when, but the only answer he seemed to be able to come up with was “Well, some of these keys that orchestras play in make BBb fingering tricky. The CC fingerings are much easier a lot of the time if you want to play in an orchestra”. Well, I played in a community orchestra with my BBb for a number of seasons. I never ran into a fingering pattern that I couldn’t handle.

[arpthark]

re: flat keys for band = BBb, sharp keys for orchestra = CC

I was chatting recently with a tuba player in a premier military band, and they had recently moved away from their 5/4-sized CC tuba to a 6/4-sized BBb tuba for much of their work. The reason they indicated was that for much of the literature that they play on the job in flat keys, the fingerings are less of a mess on a BBb.

So, even if that old chestnut about BBb/CC in this-or-that ensemble does arise from time to time, it really does have some practical adherents.

I recently saw that same player playing a compensating E-flat in a smaller ensemble performance for some official function.

[bloke]

re: DonO...
Model 25 tubas are good instruments, and are - to me - 5/4 versions of German 6/4 Kaisers. I find them to be more successful than the Miraphone 187 tubas.
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I have never been sure about the sharp-keys/C-tuba thing, but I've sort of bought into it even though I've never spoken up in favor of that mindset. Playing B-flat on all these passages that I've played (on C) for several decades, the B-flat instrument fingering patterns on the low excerpts simplify just as many things as they complicate...
...The first that time I looked at the "Fountains" passage with this B-flat instrument I sort of shook my head, but I soon found that the low E naturals are more secure, and - at least with this particular instrument - that place that is written with that octave shift (which Gene pokorny demonstrated that he could play without the octave shift and play all of the trombone notes as well... me? I'm not Superman) that the octave shift works out better for me, and I end up centering the low E natural nearly every time, instead of only when I'm at the top of my game.

Particularly with some of the really low excerpts - as with the one I brought up as a thread, I never realized how much of my concentration was going towards the fingerings in the low range on a C instrument until I finally played them on a B-flat instrument - offering a surprising number of simpler valve combinations and patterns.

"because someone says so" is never a logic/science-based explanation, but - that having been said - most of "classic" orchestral music is central European music - written by Germans and people who lived in countries adjacent to Germany), and German orchestras require B-flat tubas. Maybe they know something...(??) The requirement doesn't state that players play certain models of B-flat tubas, but the ones that are played mostly, seem to be fine instruments, obviously.

">>list of legendary American orchestral players<< play/played C tubas" is no better reason to lean towards C than "German orchestras require B flat tubas" is a better reason to lean towards B-flat.
...but I decided that ( rather than just messing around with it or picking up some budget B-flat) the only way to give it a really serious go was to get rid of the C instruments, acquire an equally good B-flat (or maybe even better), and then see what it's all about.

I don't really think that too many people have done this, and that's why I'm posting a whole lot about it. I don't mind being mocked, I don't mind that some people seem to take it personally (though that doesn't make any sense to me), and I'm trying to offer a journal of an aging/aged dyed-in-the-wool C tuba player who was (as surely were so many) told "you need to see tuba for college" [because those are "professional"] back in the early 1970s, and (to attempt to discover what it's all about) moving over completely to B-flat tuba in their late sixties... and going so far as to relieve themselves of their C instruments, so as to remove any parachutes or safety nets.

[bloke]

I think there is validity to some of the key signature discussion. I once played in a dixieland band, and didn't really enjoy it on a CC tuba, but when I got an Eb sousaphone, it was not only easier, but more fun

[bloke]

Overwhelmingly "yes" to that, Mark, because almost everything is played in E-flat, B flat, and A flat...a few in C (though the original sheet music keys to a whole bunch of the songs in that genre were keys other than those, and often sharp keys).

Another reason is because E-flat is >the< "Easy Button" length of tuba, and if it's big enough and particularly if it has a big bell and particularly if it's easy to play in tune, it can function as a "fake B-flat tuba".

A good 19-inch bell compensating E-flat doesn't sound much different at all from a King B-flat...

... and and I suspect the previous sentence is going to trigger far fewer people than the statement I made whereby I claimed that my F tuba sounds a whole lot like a 186 when I use the same mouthpiece I would use on a 186.