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...and not look like an idiot Don't? Don't say "it depends," because I already know that's the answer.

But say you might be asked to sub for a concert cycle. VERY good group, and 3 other very solid players, I think all on CC. All I have to use right now are two 100-year-old 3-valve Eb tubas. I can play pretty solidly on them, but as much as we all say we like false tones, we all know they actually stink. Especially on low Ab, which appears all the dang time.

There are going to be limitations, especially if it's new-ish music, with a lot of big low stuff. But only getting down to low B, even for whatever music, is like eating only the top third of an ice cream cone. It's good and you get the idea, but you're missing quite a bit.

And honestly, divisi/octaves is a whole "thing" that truly changes the timbre of the ensemble. Sometimes for the better especially when composers - like Sousa - know what's going on back there... but sometimes the octaves thing simply is NOT what was intended, and sounds.. well... stupid. I would not assume anything about playing it different than it appears on the page. And in the interest of not making the group sound worse, embarrassing myself, and looking like an idiot... maybe I just don't have the tools to do the job.

When I used the Medium Eb in orchestra, the pieces quite simply didn't have any stuff low enough to be a problem.

Also, I don't own the big Eb, so it could get called home at any time.

Might not even happen, so whatev'

Take the Martin medium. It will sound nice and if you do upper octaves, so be it.

Take the Martin medium, but be sure you're driving 4 hrs NW to Detroit Lakes on Thursday nights. You'll be home by midnight, and I'll buy the post-rehearsal DQ Treats.
And you probably think I'm kidding...
Tim

I agree on the Martin Medium. I mentioned to you a while ago that I'm working on flipping a top action one to front action using King valves. I recently got it together pretty close to semi-final form and was playing it yesterday and today. I love it. Low range is great, solid intonation, puts out a surprising amount of (good) sound. I'm finalizing the fourth valve routing and building the fifth circuit, then will be sending some of the small diameter stuff to Andersons for silver plating.

I realize all of that doesn't really answer your question but I'm so tickled by this Martin Medium that I can't answer anything but "Martin Medium".

York-aholic wrote: ↑Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:48 pm I agree on the Martin Medium. I mentioned to you a while ago that I'm working on flipping a top action one to front action using King valves. I recently got it together pretty close to semi-final form and was playing it yesterday and today. I love it. Low range is great, solid intonation, puts out a surprising amount of (good) sound. I'm finalizing the fourth valve routing and building the fifth circuit, then will be sending some of the small diameter stuff to Andersons for silver plating.

I realize all of that doesn't really answer your question but I'm so tickled by this Martin Medium that I can't answer anything but "Martin Medium".

Sounds like a good horn! I've never played one of them but if I could play my 'medium' King Eb in tune a little better I'd definitely play it in a concert band or brass band. It's good a lot of guts and color to it. I played an older, slightly smaller Conn Eb in my old community band, 60-80 people, as the only tuba for a while as it was all I had.

iirc Bort's Martin has a higher up valve set, a long 4th valve rotary valve somewhere after that doesn't sound like the worst way to get some low range. Tune it like the old guys did, flat 4th valve and run 1st and 3rd slides to clean it up.

Just do it and take either. There might be some stuff you have to bump the octave but so what. In brass band the Eb Bass parts are often split and where it’s an octave split the higher note actually is louder and strengthens the section’s sound. Enjoy, the worst that can happen is that the group say thanks but no thanks.

I suppose you could blindly take it, but I'd be worried about driving to the venue without crashing. I guess you don't have to worry about following the conductor, either (not that one ever would...)

the true test:

Turn the sheet music around backwards and/or don't even pull it out of the folder.

Thanks for all the replies and insight!

@York-aholic sounds awesome... you do realize that now, you're going to have to send me a few photos. :) This is definitely an option on the table for me as well, for "later." Frankly, I know it wouldn't be cheap, but I know someone willing to take on the project and always thought (and now have further evidence) that it would turn out well. Do you find that it plays "bigger" now with the larger bore King valves? Did it keep its Martin "personality" to the sound? That King valve section is rarely larger than anything, but it's definitely larger than the original .656 (or whatever) valves.

@MN_TimTuba I did think you were kidding, because don't some DQ's close pretty early for the season?

@bloke I've told this story here before, but the quick version -- band tour to Austria about 20 years ago, the group had 2 crates of music as checked luggage, only one arrived to the hotel on-time. We had a dress rehearsal, and half of us didn't have our music. Some people just totally sat out. I didn't have my music, put away my stand, and played the full rehearsal with about 90-95% accuracy. Afterwards, the director came over and it went something like "I thought you didn't have your music" to which I replied "no, I didn't." He said "wait, you memorized all of it?" to which I replied "we've been playing it for months, I think it's hard to NOT know it by now." He said something else about being impressed or something else positive about that. He was an old (and at that time, current) 40-50 year member of a major symphony orchestra so I think he definitely got my point.

I'm also seriously considering selling the Medium Eb.

It's a lovely and fun little tuba... and I'm going to sound like Joe here... but it's just not filling any needs ... and it never will.

I'm already not playing, so what difference would it make to sell and save towards something useful... and be ready when that surfaces?

I'll have to sleep on it. But it's sounding more and more like a good idea.

You sold a sousaphone for a decent amount, and you can get some money out of that Martin thing.

BUY A USED JIMBO 186 for as close to $1000 (or below, if you run into a super deal), and use it UNTIL you've managed to gather up some funding for a real tuba, again.

Buying USED isn't supporting the Communist Chinese...All you're supporting is "another American who needs $1000".

You might like my lovely used Scherzer C, too. Big sound from a small tuba, easy to play in tune. I haven’t taken it out since I got the 188.

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:00 pm I'm also seriously considering selling the Medium Eb.

It's a lovely and fun little tuba... and I'm going to sound like Joe here... but it's just not filling any needs ... and it never will.

I'm already not playing, so what difference would it make to sell and save towards something useful... and be ready when that surfaces?

I'll have to sleep on it. But it's sounding more and more like a good idea.

The thing about those three valve Eb’s is that historically they did work and do ‘the job’ - that’s why they were made and why they sold. Time might have moved on so maybe they’re found wanting now, but why not just use it / try it out with the group. Once you’re playing with other people then word of mouth might get you an economical purchase or even free use of an instrument - some folk would rather see an instrument played than gathering dust. Just a suggestion.

One thing that’s surprised me about brass band is that the alto/tenor horns (Eb) and baritones (Bb) have three valves, are not compensated, and don’t have any slide triggers. Maybe they have “wide slots.”

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:28 am One thing that’s surprised me about brass band is that the alto/tenor horns (Eb) and baritones (Bb) have three valves, are not compensated, and don’t have any slide triggers. Maybe they have “wide slots.”

If it's a "traditional" group, often the baritones are compensating.

arpthark wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:30 am

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:28 am One thing that’s surprised me about brass band is that the alto/tenor horns (Eb) and baritones (Bb) have three valves, are not compensated, and don’t have any slide triggers. Maybe they have “wide slots.”

If it's a "traditional" group, often the baritones are compensating.

Thanks. In my group, the euphoniums are compensating, but I’m pretty sure the baritones aren’t. I’ll have to look more closely. None of the basses are compensating, but we’re certainly not using traditional instruments on bass; they’re mostly 5 valve F and C tubas.

Are there compensating cornets?

jtm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:28 am the alto/tenor horns (Eb) and baritones (Bb)

I know it can't happen, but wouldn't it be sweet if we could call these two survivors of the saxhorn family "the alto horns (Eb) and tenor horns (Bb)"?

I think that's fairly consistent with the rest of the world. (I've been handed parts for an Austrian or German polka or something that said "Bb tenor" and clearly were intended for something a lot like "British [i.e., not] baritone." See also flicorno tenore.)

Confusion would dissipate like fog giving way to the clear light of a summer morning.

@bort2.0, I voted on the big Eb, but if you like the medium, take the medium. Nobody is going to care what you are playing. They are going to notice you're there, and playing a tuba, and if you play it reasonably in tune and in time, nobody will say anything except "nice to see you!"

I would say my local band is "pretty dang good," and I have brought everything from a 1904 York 3v Eb to a King bell-front 3v BBb to a tiny Yamaha clone F tuba to a sousaphone to my Eastman CC to rehearsals, and nobody except maybe the two other tuba players have ever noticed or cared (and even then, maybe only mild curiosity). I don't draw attention to myself and have fun in the back row.

Yes, Ab is awful, so I do a lot of octave transpositions without even hesitating. I asked the director if he wanted me on the upper divisi parts, and he said yes. I interpreted that as a mandate. When there isn't an upper part, I write one.

Take the smaller tuba to rehearsal. You can position yourself as "filling a niche." When I showed up at my first rehearsal with a 3/4 Eb, I boldly announced I was there to cover the bass tuba parts. The other guys sitting there with their contrabasses just said, "Well, okay. Welcome."

Well, you could be my size (instead of bear-sized) and show up with a Mfone 183 and they all think you have a BBb tuba because it is so HUGE.