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I’d be interested to hear how folk ‘get by’ in Wind Bands with three valve tubas and what size Tuba (Eb or BBb) they both use and feel is necessary to cover their part. Is there only one Tuba part?

My own playing is in Brass Bands and a three valve Eb covers virtually all of what’s asked of me, but my part is Eb specific and the BBb’s have a separate part (sometimes we’re playing in unison, sometimes an octave apart and sometimes parts of a chord). Brass Band music is written in transposed treble clef, if the BBb part were written in Bass Clef then there would be many ledger lines below the stave.

During the Covid lockdown it was legal here (in the UK) to meet in small groups to play quintet music. The Tuba part was easily covered with a three valve Eb.

I think you would find that in very many community bands in the USA, the primary instrument being used is a 3-valve BBb tuba. Eb tuba is not very popular here at all outside of British style brass bands, and even in those ensembles, players will often use something other than an Eb tuba to cover that part.

Wind band literature from closer to the early 20th century often has higher divisi parts to account for Eb basses, which were more popular then. Modern wind band repertoire typically only has a single tuba part, with the occasional octave or fifth divisi. The tuba parts often go below low concert A natural, which is the lowest note a 3-valve eefer can play. Fs and Gs and especially A-flats below the staff are very common. Kids in school are also universally started on BBb tubas, so that is likely what adult amateurs are going to get.

I play a bell-front 3v BBb in outdoor concerts, with no real problem aside from accounting for the intonation quirks inherent in the three-valve system. Low E-flat -- below the 1-2-3 E natural -- is a good false tone on all my tubas, so that's not a problem, and that note is very rare to encounter.

In high school we all played Besson 3v BBb comps on some relatively challenging stuff (classic band pieces plus wind ensemble transcriptions of Mendelsohn's Hebrides Overture and the Finale to Tchaikovsky's 4th) without issues. I think 3v non-comps take work for tuning, but they're usable if you're ready to work the slides, and they're what I've used most in local community bands. I'd love to try a Besson3v Eb in band, but I haven't had the opportunity.

In my neck of the woods (rural northern Minnesota, far from colleges and civilization), in 40 years playing in 5 different community bands, I've seen exactly one CC tuba and one Eb tuba. The de facto tuba is a 3 or 4 valve BBb.
That being said, I'd be completely at ease playing a good 3 valve BBb tuba, and comfortable with an Eb tuba as long as there was at least one BBb or CC to carry the lower parts. We like our bass parts to be energetic, solid, and well, loud up here.
But that's just us.
Tim
PS. The single Eb that joined us was a 19" bell Besson comp 3+1, and the guy was a MONSTER player! He did everything well and loud down to fundamental Eb, but below that our large BBb's took over. I really enjoyed having him in the band.

arpthark wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:55 am ... Eb tuba is not very popular here at all outside of British style brass bands, and even in those ensembles, players will often use something other than an Eb tuba to cover that part.

Guilty

I took a 5 valve F tuba (not compensating -- are there even any compensating Fs?) to my community band (not a brass band) for the first couple of rehearsals this cycle. There are actually some low E flats this time (we also see D sometimes, with movie music arrangements). That's a good pedal note on this F tuba. And lots of low Gs, so I needed all the valves. I convinced myself (and the guy on BBb next to me, I think) that I could get by with that tuba in that group, but I think the C tuba I used last week was a better fit, so that'll be the one for the concert.

I posted a thread a few weeks ago about whether I should try subbing with a very good group with a 3 valve Eb. I ended up not doing it (although only partially because of the tuba).

I think a 3-valve BBb would do just fine though, as long as there's no low Eb's (and don't give me any of that false tone stuff! ) In fact, I'd bet that most middle and high school students are playing 3 valve BBb's and it works just fine.

Having recently taken my (old-old) King 1250 B-flat sousaphone to a band rehearsal, the tuning is remarkably good, the (mathmatically flat) C (1) and B (1-2) are remarkably flexible, the acoustically-flat middle-range G-flat (2-3) is flexible, and the "false tone" range plays as well as any tuba's "5-valve" range. The only two pitches which really suffer are the two 1-2-3 valved pitches, though an upper #3 slide remedies those issues as well.

As a taxpayer (and with such large percentages of local school systems now being funded by states' and federal budgets), I would like to see schools (regardless of how meager or abundant their budgets) supplied with these (ONLY - as they offer a nice concise "tuba" sound, and are suitable for both concert band and marching band)...or (if a school system's budget is particularly challenging) the fiberglass version or the King-referencing/nearly-as-in-tune (and better-built - imo - than currently-manufactured USA sousaphones) John Packer sousaphones (which are priced around half of the current price of King sousaphones).

Anything more or fancier (yes: in my opinion) should be furnished by individual students' parents, and not by those who neither have children enrolled in band classes nor even in schools.

ALL OF THAT HAVING BEEN SAID...English-style "brass bands" have their traditions, and sousaphones are NOT part of those traditions.
I HAVE noticed that (WITHOUT any compensating gadgetry and in-particular) the PRE-19-inch bell (simple 3-valve 17-inch bell non-comp) "Besson" top-action B-flat tubas offer intonation characteristics (as well as "false tones") just about as good as with King sousaphones - with one glaring flaw being a particularly sharp E-flat in the staff. I'm fairly confident in reporting that the "bigger-belled" later "improved" top-action 3+1 compensating B-flats typically offer more challenging intonation characteristics than those made during the 17-inch bell era.

As I am so often disagreeable with the mainstream, I'll simply point out that low A may be the lowest note you can play with the usual valve combinations on an Eb 3 banger. I have no problem on either of my rotary Eb tubas playing Ab down to the pedal utilizing the false tone that exists on Ab. You are not limited unless you think you are.

Here is my two cent's worth, for what it may mean to you...

Use what you have and practice outside of rehearsal,
as you practice and become more confident
you may reach a point where you think your tuba is limiting you.
That may be a better time to consider other options,
mainly because you'll already have started on any limitations
you can eliminate through practice and preparation for rehearsals.

-30-

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 4:46 pm As I am so often disagreeable with the mainstream, I'll simply point out that low A may be the lowest note you can play with the usual valve combinations on an Eb 3 banger. I have no problem on either of my rotary Eb tubas playing Ab down to the pedal utilizing the false tone that exists on Ab. You are not limited unless you think you are.

I always value opinions that are alternative to mainstream but, of course, what one person can get to work might be unsuitable for or beyond another person. Indeed, providing your judgment is sound, you are not limited unless you think you are - that applies to so many things. Over the years many folk will have used false tones to great effect on a three valve Eb. Sadly for me false times have remained out of my grasp but fortunately it’s never mattered to me either; as in my original post I’ve always managed to hold a good bass line with just a three valve Eb but my interest here is in discovering other people’s experiences.

Moving on I’m thankful to everyone who has replied to the thread. North American Wind Band playing is different from the predominant Brass Band style of play here in the UK but they clearly still have much in common and a small percentage of brass players here do play in Wind Bands. Based on the responses I’m inclined to think that a small non-comp BBb would allow an old man to play pretty much any bass-line in any group - just need the lip, to be able to transpose when needed and when needed be able to read bass clef fluently. There’s always skills building to do; it ain’t what you’ve got that (mostly) matters it’s what you do with it.

I think it depends on the group / rep. The community band I play in has a few tuba players with 4 and 5 valve horns, so if 1-2 person has a 3 valve instrument or works out. If it were a 1 tuba player only situation, that would be kind of limiting for the rep we've been playing. Our group is about 65-75 typically with 4 tuba players.

I play BBb tuba in 2 groups, a wind band and a brass band. In both I use Besson instruments owned by the groups.

For the wind band I have Besson 700-series 3+1 non-comp, to be honest this configuration doesn't really make sense. You can't play chromatically down to the pedal Bb because the tuning slides are not really accessible while playing, if the music is slow I can use the palm of my left hand to move the 1st slide but not very accurate. But the repertoire we play doesn't need it either, very rarely we have to go below the F. If I had to buy my own tuba for this group a older Besson compensated 3 valve would be ideal (and also quite cheap), a regular 3 valve would be ok if the slides were reachable for C and F I guess.

For the brass band I use a Besson 994GS, 3+1 comp. For that repertoire it is really needed in my opinion, a lot of pedals and also very low technical sections. I don't see how I play the repertoire with only 3 valves, only if I play a lot of stuff one octave up, but that is where Eb's are playing

I would agree that a four-valve non-compensating instrument really doesn't accomplish much more than a three valve. The fourth valve alone pair of pitches are okay, but the 2-4 pitches are still quite sharp. Also, very little in the double low range is in tune. Three valve compensating makes more sense.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:40 am I would agree that a four-valve non-compensating instrument really doesn't accomplish much more than a three valve. The fourth valve alone pair of pitches are okay, but the 2-4 pitches are still quite sharp. Also, very little in the double low range is in tune. Three valve compensating makes more sense.

Why aren't 2nd valve triggers more popular? 2nd valve slides all have rings to pull, but you can't do that while you're playing.

Seems a lot easier to do a 2nd valve trigger well (and cheaply) than to do a main tuning slide trigger.

jtm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:16 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:40 am I would agree that a four-valve non-compensating instrument really doesn't accomplish much more than a three valve. The fourth valve alone pair of pitches are okay, but the 2-4 pitches are still quite sharp. Also, very little in the double low range is in tune. Three valve compensating makes more sense.

Why aren't 2nd valve triggers more popular? 2nd valve slides all have rings to pull, but you can't do that while you're playing.

Seems a lot easier to do a 2nd valve trigger well (and cheaply) than to do a main tuning slide trigger.

A four-valve non-compensating instrument would work out pretty well, as long as it played fairly well in tune with itself, a right hand thumb trigger operated the first valve slide, and a left hand thumb trigger operated the second valve slide. That way, such an instrument would nearly be the equivalent of a 6-valve instrument.. obviously not quite.

I've suggested this before, but I don't think many people think I'm particularly clever, as I've also suggested that three valve compensating instruments need to be brought back and - in particular - used in schools, and maybe even applied to sousaphones.

jtm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:16 am

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:40 am I would agree that a four-valve non-compensating instrument really doesn't accomplish much more than a three valve. The fourth valve alone pair of pitches are okay, but the 2-4 pitches are still quite sharp. Also, very little in the double low range is in tune. Three valve compensating makes more sense.

Why aren't 2nd valve triggers more popular? 2nd valve slides all have rings to pull, but you can't do that while you're playing.

Seems a lot easier to do a 2nd valve trigger well (and cheaply) than to do a main tuning slide trigger.

Those pull rings are mainly to dump water. Most of the piston horns that have “accessible” 2nd valve slides with a tune-on-the-fly design have the pull ring on a stick so that it’s on level with the other slides. This design is pretty fragile in the hands of students. (I also don’t seek this design out as needing to pull second valve on its own is telling.)

Now if a trigger were in place, that makes things easier, but now there are more parts to break. Alas, not student friendly.

It would be pretty cool if someone engineered a 3v comp and integrated it with the 2340 design. An in tune bugle with an in tune valve block would be great. That being said, the old Besson Bb tubas had a decent scale as well, but simply unpopular here.

I still reference my high school days where the primary tubas were all 2340s. The band director drilled us about intonation. The program was quite excellent and known for musicianship (dynamics, rhythm, and intonation).

However, the literature has “evolved” in the 3 decades since. The only time I saw something lower than low E natural was while in the local symphony affiliated youth orchestra and I did have my own personal 4v Bb.

3v tubas in a wind band are getting rare here in Germany but I agree that for most players it would probably work out. However most players do not set up their slides right regarding proper tuning, especially 1-3, 123 combinations.

As for the 2nd slide pull ring: With my 4v rotary Kaiser, I can use my 2nd slide pull ring easily with my right thumb, simply using the pull ring as thumb ring. I use Meinlschmidt slide oil which gives a smooth slide action. I pull the 1st slide with my left hand so I can move both slides independently from the valve fingers. Both slides are limited at the end using a shoestring. The 2nd slide is limited also on the valve side with a cork ring to stop the push at the minimum required position. Very simple but effective.

Wind band literature played here is more and more requiring low E/Eb and below for the low tuba.

The more a contrabass tuba is like a sousaphone I think, the easier those tones are to produce in that false / whatever you call it range. When I was in high school, I don't think any of us knew that those pitches were not correctly played open, second valve, and so forth. All we had were three valve fiberglass sousaphones to play everything.

BramJ wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:32 am I play BBb tuba in 2 groups, a wind band and a brass band. In both I use Besson instruments owned by the groups.

For the wind band I have Besson 700-series 3+1 non-comp, to be honest this configuration doesn't really make sense. You can't play chromatically down to the pedal Bb because the tuning slides are not really accessible while playing, if the music is slow I can use the palm of my left hand to move the 1st slide but not very accurate. But the repertoire we play doesn't need it either, very rarely we have to go below the F. If I had to buy my own tuba for this group a older Besson compensated 3 valve would be ideal (and also quite cheap), a regular 3 valve would be ok if the slides were reachable for C and F I guess.

For the brass band I use a Besson 994GS, 3+1 comp. For that repertoire it is really needed in my opinion, a lot of pedals and also very low technical sections. I don't see how I play the repertoire with only 3 valves, only if I play a lot of stuff one octave up, but that is where Eb's are playing

Some interesting insights there, one of them being it all depends in which group you play and anther that some emerging repertoire assumes a fourth valve. From the straw poll here it seems like for the vast bulk of the time just a three valve BBb is perfectly fine, and work around it when it’s not. The BBb’s in ‘my’ Brass Band sometimes have a split part where a fourth valve is needed by one of them … so the other player is fine with just three. Similarly the Eb’s sometimes have split parts, but it’s rare to need the fourth valve and, anyway, the BBb’s - or one of then - are probably in unison with the lower part so there’s some redundancy / duplication.

Interesting too that both groups supply the instruments, I’d thought that - outside of some schools - only UK Brass Bands did that. I believe that BramJ is based in North West Continental Europe.