TubaForum.net

Or maybe how important is a good tuba for learning?

In another thread, bloke suggested that even for advanced students it's important to work with good instruments:

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:18 am As I balked at buying a crappy (intonation) F tuba in the 1970's (as I believe I played well enough to release that the intonation offered by all of those which were imported into the USA - at that time - were crappy), I put off buying one until I discovered one that was actually good. At that time, only a couple of small places were importing a few of them, and (again) mine was brought to me by a German resident acquaintance who was scheduled to visit the USA. (They marked up their cost - INCLUDING "pre"-transportation ACROSS GERMANY AND BACK to fetch the tuba for me, to finance their trip to the USA...still defining a very reasonable price for me...$2400, which - adjusted for inflation - is around $7600...for a handmade 6-rotor F tuba (better than any imported to the USA at that time, and - arguably - better than any others made before or since).

...

Am I able to pick up any/all of the crappy out-of-tune rotary F tubas and easily play in the "low C" range?
absolutely, but they're still crappy and out-of-tune.

...and crappy/out-of-tune is why I don't believe its a good idea or "rite of initiation into a studio" to coerce (particularly not freshman) students into working on ANY passages of ANY pieces with some mascot/known-to-be-crappy instrument.

I started playing F tuba a year ago, and I'm now on my third tuba. The first was a tease: lovely sound and fun to play, but difficult enough to play in tune that intonation was a distraction. The second solved lots of problems, and I've been happy to learn and perform with it. I like it. It's fun, and I could probably keep doing my amateur stuff for years with it. The third is better in ways that I didn't even realize I was missing: tone, tuning, agility, and just plain easiness. I can do even better amateur stuff now!

So, was it important to make this journey of learning as a player with progressively less bad tubas? I appreciate the difference between tubas in a way that I couldn't have if I'd started with the best, but am I a better player for it? Or would I be better now if I'd started with the best?

Related: are there other normal musical instruments -- trumpets, trombones, clarinets, saxophones -- with as much variation in playability as CC or F tubas? Do beginners on those things get seriously set back by starting with low quality equipment?

It's hard to find an alto saxophone where are the octave D's are not too far apart, and the pitches around the middle of the instrument - such as G - don't ride sharp.
Interestingly, most tenor saxophones do pretty well, and even the cheapies.
I think there are a lot more intonation-friendly B flat tubas than C.

Trumpets - whereby the bow of the bell is very large - tend to have the same saggy fifth partial as a typical tuba, and - when that bow is smaller - the fourth partial pitch (which is the same as a concert B flat on a B flat trumpet) tends to play a little sharp.

Being in good repair and fully functional is the most important thing. I learned on a tuba where the 1st valve stem wasn't attached, and I had to hold it in place constantly.

The next year, I upgraded to a tuba that had a broken 3rd valve guide (and nobody could/would replace it). So, I had to constantly try to keep the valve from spinning.

How I put up with all that and stuck with it, who knows.

As a general rule of thumb a poor workman blames his tools and it’s surprising what a good workman can achieve with relatively poor equipment. Can a student sound reasonable with a poor instrument? Of course he or she will be limited by what it can do but they are also limited by what instruction they receive and what ability they have. As they say: ‘a pro’ will sound better on a student instrument than a student will sound on a pro’ instrument’.

Being in good repair and fully functional is the most important thing. I learned on a tuba where the 1st valve stem wasn't attached, and I had to hold it in place constantly.

Yep, whatever you have should be in sufficiently good repair to be operable.

Some student instruments are less good than others and using the less good ones is a bit like running up hill, an extra burden. The able and skilled manage the burden. I’m not a great player and being in community bands I meet a wide variety of skills; the thing that I notice in those around me is that - and by far - what holds people back most isn’t what they play. YMMV.

How important is a good Tuba? In my experience it’s less important than we’re typically led to believe. As a teenager I was - somehow - in the county youth band (the county had about four million people in it), the kids that sat by me had instruments that were significantly better than mine but all that mattered then and there was what came out of the bell.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:41 pm It's hard to find an alto saxophone where are the octave D's are not too far apart, and the pitches around the middle of the instrument - such as G - don't ride sharp.
Interestingly, most tenor saxophones do pretty well, and even the cheapies.

Saxophones are in principle sensitive here to mouthpiece parameters, because tuning in the upper and lower ranges involves two separate parameters that are both affected by adjusting the mouthpiece position. That could easily be more of a problem for the smaller members of the family.

I guess there are also various parameters that could be considered in evaluation of a "good" tuba, some of which may be more important than others to the progress of the player. I spent a lot of time early in my learning process with a tuba that was good for someone else. I mean really, it was a good tuba, and the guy who probably still has it made good use of it.

I personally think it is worth it to spend as much as you can afford on the best tuba-for-you that you can find. So you don't play like the top pros? It will be easier to play, which makes more fun for you. I see no benefit in the macho of "look how well I play this horrid thing!" Nor do I see any benefit in working any harder than you have to, to make music. It's about the music, and whatever makes it easier to do that --- is worth it.

@jtm, if you don't mind sharing, what were the 3 F tubas that you have gone through so far?

I think about the idea behind your original post when I consider beginning band students starting out on tiny little tubas that even a professional would have trouble getting a good sound on. I agree with Mary Ann.

It's funny; I have a revolving door of tubas in my barn with the occasional flipping that I do, and occasionally bring some inside to test them out with a tuner or play through something. I had moved from a tiny 100 year old Eb tuba back to my Eastman CC and my wife said "wow, that sounds nice -- I forgot what a real tuba sounds like!"

I know with those F tubas, it's not as extreme, but some instruments definitely make the music we are trying to perform a lot easier to deal with.

I have been pleasantly surprised with my little YFB-621 clone after playing almost exclusively on German rotary F tubas since I began playing F tuba. It is really easy to play, responds a lot like a tiny CC tuba, while sacrificing maybe 10%-15% on quality of sound, projection, and high range stability. It's all about figuring out what you value in an instrument depending on the repertoire at hand.

Were it not for "good tubas", I wouldn't be setting aside better-paying repair work to go play lower-paying gigs (as well as tolerating the nonsense that goes along with working-for others - ie. "administrators")...and I don't mind working for music directors with odd musical ideas, as they challenge me.

When REPAIRING instruments, I'm often STRUGGLING with "bad" (broken-to-FUBAR) instruments.

Playing "good" instruments (whereby I've usually spent SEVERAL dozen hours on "ALREADY-good" instruments to raise them up to "not-even-aware-of-them-at-all-while-I'm-playing-them" instruments) helps prevent me from feeling completely hopeless - or viewing instruments as "obstacles" - rather than "pleasure-in-life devices" (which they should be). I rarely ask to play others' instruments, because (meaning no elitism, here) most others' instruments feature epic (mechanical, if not response/intonation) distractions. This goes along with what I repeatedly have said about the tremendous respect that I have for really fine performers who play on (what I know to be...ok then: "in my opinion") really bad instruments.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:38 am I personally think it is worth it to spend as much as you can afford on the best tuba-for-you that you can find. So you don't play like the top pros? It will be easier to play, which makes more fun for you. I see no benefit in the macho of "look how well I play this horrid thing!" Nor do I see any benefit in working any harder than you have to, to make music. It's about the music, and whatever makes it easier to do that --- is worth it.

That’s an interesting take on things and one that I’ve heard echoed around various forums before. Me, I think it’s a case of it all depends … but don’t play something (as your only instrument) that’s actually holding you back. A friend of mine teaches brass to rich kids, one kid wanted a new instrument and the parents said that only the best would do. Along student, parent and teacher to a good shop to buy a new instrument. The teacher picks out a mid priced instrument that they felt would be both durable and capable of taking the student a very long way forward. The student picks out the most expensive instrument in the shop, ‘cause more expensive is best and you all know that . The teacher says the expensive instrument I s far better than the student needs and that it will be in pieces/need repairing within weeks (‘cause the teacher knows what kids are like and what they need). However the parent says only the best for my child and buys the dearest instrument. Within a few months the instrument is mashed up, the student is not practicing and is only making a little progress.

What’s the moral to all this? He who buys cheap buys twice is typically true, but throwing money at things is a poor substitute for good judgement … know what you need, add in some contingency or growing space and then try to buy at that level.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:06 pm A friend of mine teaches brass to rich kids, one kid wanted a new instrument and the parents said that only the best would do….

I started school band on clarinet. Somehow we didn’t understand that the school would supply a French horn, which is what I wanted to play. Anyway, I could borrow my Dad’s clarinet, which was usually idle. It was a very nice Buffet, which I certainly didn’t need. But I remember other kids having lots of problems — mechanical, pitch, sound — that I just didn’t have. Part of it was that I was pretty quick to pick it up, but having a no-nonsense good instrument that just did its thing really well certainly helped.

If kids can’t take care of stuff and parents can’t appreciate that “best” means different things in different situations (and doesn’t always match price), those are other issues.

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:55 am @jtm, if you don't mind sharing, what were the 3 F tubas that you have gone through so far?

Sure, Blake. The first, a year ago, was the unusual Miraphone proto-181 that bort2.0 had for a couple months. It was fun, but intonation needed more effort than I wanted to give. The second is an early Miraphone 181 (the kind that looks like a PT-10). I like it; much better behaved. The latest is a B&S Symphonie from late in the run. It’s better in several subtle ways that maybe I wouldn’t have appreciated a year ago, but I do now. Or maybe I would have — I could tell in two minutes that the first tuba would be frustrating — but who knows for sure?

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:30 pm

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:55 am @jtm, if you don't mind sharing, what were the 3 F tubas that you have gone through so far?

Sure, Blake. The first, a year ago, was the unusual Miraphone proto-181 that bort2.0 had for a couple months. It was fun, but intonation needed more effort than I wanted to give. The second is an early Miraphone 181 (the kind that looks like a PT-10). I like it; much better behaved. The latest is a B&S Symphonie from late in the run. It’s better in several subtle ways that maybe I wouldn’t have appreciated a year ago, but I do now. Or maybe I would have — I could tell in two minutes that the first tuba would be frustrating — but who knows for sure?

Thanks -- I was keen on the proto-181 and the PT-10-ish 181, wasn't aware you had gotten a Symphonie. Congrats! I like those a lot.

jtm wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:19 pm

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:06 pm A friend of mine teaches brass to rich kids, one kid wanted a new instrument and the parents said that only the best would do….

I started school band on clarinet. Somehow we didn’t understand that the school would supply a French horn, which is what I wanted to play. Anyway, I could borrow my Dad’s clarinet, which was usually idle. It was a very nice Buffet, which I certainly didn’t need. But I remember other kids having lots of problems — mechanical, pitch, sound — that I just didn’t have. Part of it was that I was pretty quick to pick it up, but having a no-nonsense good instrument that just did its thing really well certainly helped.

If kids can’t take care of stuff and parents can’t appreciate that “best” means different things in different situations (and doesn’t always match price), those are other issues.

I see the point that you’re making. However schools supplying instruments that aren’t fit for purpose (‘cause they don’t reliably work) isn’t a reason to buy an expensive instrument, but it is a reason to buy a suitable instrument. That’s where my buying guide comes in in that purchasing decision: ‘ know what you need, add in some contingency or growing space and then try to buy at that level’.

I recall a discussion elsewhere about mid-priced student and expensive professional instruments; the professional instruments had wide slots such that the harmonics could be lipped into tune and the student instruments had narrow slots such that some of the harmonics were in tune and some were only a little out. Give the students wide slots and they’ll play well out of tune ‘cause their ears aren’t developed enough and neither is their ability to lip a note into tune. Just because something is expensive doesn’t mean that it’s suitable for your purposes it just means that it should be better made than something that’s significantly cheaper.

Maybe the discussion would benefit from discussion of what a good Tuba is and for who it might be good …

I suspect that "children's" ears are better than we suspect.

consider this truth: Cats/dogs know FAR MORE words (or the gist of what we say) that many of us are aware-or-believe.

children and tuning, today: With auto-tune and the overwhelming majority of all music in media - today - being very well-tuned, I believe children today (more than in the past) are able to more easily recognize "out-of-tune" (as it won't sound like that to which they are accustomed.

Let's not discount that of which out pets OR our children are aware.

"wide-slot" tubas, etc: I've already spoken to how this characteristic allows for 3-valve (with consideration to taxpayers) instruments to be played well in tune.

2nd tenor wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:43 pm Maybe the discussion would benefit from discussion of what a good Tuba is and for who it might be good …

Yes. As I mentioned above, I resemble that remark - an example of someone learning to play on a tuba that was good, but maybe wasn't really so good for someone learning to play.

On the other hand, I've benefited a lot from having reasonably good tubas to play. I don't think there's a simple answer.

A horn that you have to constantly fight to play in tune and with your best tone is a distraction that a player can't afford. Learning musicianship requires concentration, and a bad horn causes the player to have to concentrate on other things, or else the player has to let bad to mediocre sound be ignored.

You don't have to have a world-class instrument, but you don't need a bad to mediocre instrument. It'll do nothing but harm you.

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 10:38 am I personally think it is worth it to spend as much as you can afford on the best tuba-for-you that you can find. So you don't play like the top pros? It will be easier to play, which makes more fun for you. I see no benefit in the macho of "look how well I play this horrid thing!" Nor do I see any benefit in working any harder than you have to, to make music. It's about the music, and whatever makes it easier to do that --- is worth it.

Agree with this.

Echoing @jtm’s point, my high school turned out decent tuba operators. Almost all of us had played 2340s and 2350s in both junior and high school.

Getting decent sound and intonation out of the box because the tuba isn’t fighting you is pretty important to getting young ears and brains to work properly.

As good a tuba as one can get is important. I like that point. Excluding turds that service the schools, something in good mechanical shape is sure a good start.

I’ve owned my fair share. They’ve all been “good” horns. Their new owners all like them, and obviously better than I as they still own them.

If we’re talking F tubas, a good instrument makes all the difference. But, one person’s definition of good is different from another’s.

For instance, my rotary F that I have now is the best that I’ve owned for me. I don’t like Pt-10 style F tubas. To me, they’re not “good” in the ways that I want them to be. My Willson is good in the ways I want. Make sense?

were it not for good equipment I'd be limited to engaging reparte and razor-sharp wit


.

The most important thing is to buy the latest/greatest model, which is hyped up on social media and fora such as this.

If you want to make sure and impress a high school band director, make certain it's rotary.

If a director is mostly interested in marching band, it should be able to be played while resting on the player's shoulder, and should be bright silver plated.

If for college, it should be "in C".

To impress me, it needs to have been "worked over" enough by me so that - once I croak - no one else will want it, or - if they might want it - they might not be able to figure out what all that "stuff" is on it.