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Hey, I know at least a few of you are trombonists. My main gig's principal trombonist has asked all the tuba and euph players with experience on trombone to assist on an upcoming Fillmore trombone feature.

The conductor wants strident, even blatty glissandi. Seems to me a bright-sounding tenor or even a peashooter would be the order of the day. Any suggestions for an affordable, vintage instrument?

The only tenor I've owned was a King "Cleveland" 606, and even with a Benge 12C mouthpiece, it was unresponsive and bland-sounding--a totally uninspiring trombone.

Yamaha YSL-354’s are student level trombones that usually play quite well. They are plentiful on the landscape and, with a little work, you should be able to find a good one at a reasonable price.

I don't know enough to recommend anything, but there is a comfortably priced horn in the off-topic clsssifieds.

Sounds like a peashooter "Olds Ambassador" trombone from the 60's would fit the bill well and would be pretty true to the time period as well. These show up very often on shopgoodwill.com. A friend bought one from 1963 that turned out to be in almost immaculate condition for $50. He loves it for lead jazz playing.

If you want that thin old school sound, probably a 2h would do. Those might be hard to come by. A 4h might also do it. An Olds Ambassador or a Studio might do the trick. Of course you'd have to use any of these with a small mouthpiece to get the right effect. Like a 15c.

MikeS wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:23 pm Yamaha YSL-354’s are student level trombones that usually play quite well. They are plentiful on the landscape and, with a little work, you should be able to find a good one at a reasonable price.

As long as the slide is good, these are tough to beat. As for provenance, Doug Elliott won an audition to the Airmen of Note on one.

WC8KCY wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:03 pm Hey, I know at least a few of you are trombonists. My main gig's principal trombonist has asked all the tuba and euph players with experience on trombone to assist on an upcoming Fillmore trombone feature.

The conductor wants strident, even blatty glissandi. Seems to me a bright-sounding tenor or even a peashooter would be the order of the day. Any suggestions for an affordable, vintage instrument?

What's your budget? Does the principal trombonist have suggestions or preferences?

If you need to keep it under, say, $500, you can't go wrong with the Yamaha 354. Other options you might want to look at include Getzen 351/451 (yellow/red bell), Olds ambassador (like the one in off-topic classifieds), sub-.500" small bore horns like Conn 4H, vintage Holton, etc. Stretch to $1k, and Conn 6H, King 2b or 3b, etc start becoming available.

The only tenor I've owned was a King "Cleveland" 606, and even with a Benge 12C mouthpiece, it was unresponsive and bland-sounding--a totally uninspiring trombone.

This is a little surprising to me, having sat next to someone in high school using one of these. I wasn't as tuned in to nuances in tone quality then, but I thought he sounded quite good on his.

Unless your 606 was a really old model and different, revisit it, and stick nothing larger than a 6-1/2AL in the receiver. (Based on the parameters dictated, I would suggest an 11C or 12C.)

The most recent 606 made only differ from professional instruments in that they don't have the King trademark curved brace nor wide tuning slide bow. Basically, they are just about the equivalent of a Conn 6H - specifications-wise, and very well made to boot.

8" bell, .500" bore - as is Yamaha.
The Yamaha beginner model mentioned above is good but the recent vintage 606 King trombones are just as good. And constructed of superior materials compared to Yamaha...

... and 40 years ago or so, the King beginner model (after they stopped making the extremely small Cleveland model -which was well-made - and started making beginner instruments so cheaply that they actually had chrome plated brass inner slide tubes - the equivalent of the lowest grade import crap) did drop to a horrible low point, I will readily admit.

I have a small bore Yamaha YSL-3530R for sale. It is .500/.525 dual bore.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/225746920077?m ... media=COPY

Kevbach33 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:59 pmWhat's your budget? Does the principal trombonist have suggestions or preferences?

The principal mentioned going with a small tenor or peashooter, but wasn't specific about a model.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2023 4:06 pm Unless your 606 was a really old model and different, revisit it, and stick nothing larger than a 6-1/2AL in the receiver. (Based on the parameters dictated, I would suggest an 11C or 12C.)

... and 40 years ago or so, the King beginner model (after they stopped making the extremely small Cleveland model -which was well-made - and started making beginner instruments so cheaply that they actually had chrome plated brass inner slide tubes - the equivalent of the lowest grade import crap) did drop to a horrible low point, I will readily admit.

I got my 606 around 1982, and my instrument looked as if it had gotten at least two trombonists all the way through high school before I owned it. One of the inner slide tubes had a spot where the chrome plating had flaked off, revealing bare brass. Perhaps I had just gotten a crummy and/or badly worn example.

I've got 12C, 7C, 6 1/2AL, and 51B tenor-shank mouthpieces at the ready, but the Yamaha 45A looks interesting for this application.

Perusing eBay tonight, it seems that most peashooter-era trombones lack a lock ring for securing the bell section to the slide section. I plan on using a stand with whatever trombone I end up with. Having once played a Pan American without a lock ring, it seems to me that the slide section would likely fall off such an instrument if placed on a typical stand, which is a bit of a deal-breaker.

Is this the case with instruments without a lock ring, or am I missing something?

The Olds Ambassador option is lookin' better and better...

Those were not good 606 trombones.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:36 am Those were not good 606 trombones.

I'm seeing some King Cleveland 605 tenors on eBay. Are these the small-bore variants that you mentioned above?

I believe they are SMALLER than 606's...

I have a near-perfect-condition recently-made (they even put gold annodizing on the aluminum valance on the case, and the outside slides are nickel-silver - as with the pro models) 606 here, but I would want several hundred bucks for it...and that's too much for some single novelty gig...

The 605 and 605F were .491", same as the 1305 Tempo (or pre-2B single bore Liberty).

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:40 pm The 605 and 605F were .491", same as the 1305 Tempo (or pre-2B single bore Liberty).

Was the 605 narrow (as are old-old "Cleveland" student model and all subsequent "beginner" models) or wide (as with the pro-models) ?

The ORIGINAL (yes?) Tempo was put out to compete with (similar cosmetics) Conn Connstellation:
- lacquer-over-nickel-plated bell
- wide bell section with pro-style curved brace
- brass (in contrast with the pro-models' nickel-silver) outside slide tubes
- SINGLE .491" bore (vs. post-Liberty pro-model 2B DUO .481"-.491" bores)

Olds (to also compete) began nickel plating their "Studio" model trombones.

(ALL of this: prior to the to-this-day bright-silver craze...mostly: trumpets/euphoniums/tubas...initiated by "Doc" Severinsen playing a Getzen "Eterna")

All of the lacquered-brass 6XX beginner model trombones - over the years (regardless of bell size and bore size) featured narrow bell sections and not-curved bell braces. Today's 606 is - nearly - a professional trombone (other than the narrow bell section, and no curved bell brace)...sort of a "2-1/2B"...

...all correct, or some wrong...??

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 1:23 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:40 pm The 605 and 605F were .491", same as the 1305 Tempo (or pre-2B single bore Liberty).

Was the 605 narrow (as are old-old "Cleveland" student model and all subsequent "beginner" models) or wide (as with the pro-models) ?

Narrow, as was the 605F.

The ORIGINAL (yes?) Tempo was put out to compete with (similar cosmetics) Conn Connstellation:
- lacquer-over-nickel-plated bell
- wide bell section with pro-style curved brace
- brass (in contrast with the pro-models' nickel-silver) outside slide tubes
- SINGLE .491" bore (vs. pro-model 2B DUO .481"-.491" bores)

All correct. The 2B-like Tempos were the models 1305 and 1306. Both had the nickel-plated bell, yellow slide, curved bell brace, and wider pro chassis. The 1305 was the earlier, smaller one with the .491" bore and 2B-like 7 3/8" bell, and as far as I know was always just stamped "King Tempo" on the bell (no 1305). Basically a King Liberty (not 2B) with a yellow slide. The 1306 came later and always had a big 1306 stamped on the bell, and was a .500" bore with a 3B-like 8" bell.

King also labelled a bunch of other trombones as Tempo for a while, including the 606 and 607/609. There was also the 306 Tempo, which was a 606 with a nickel slide, and the 1506 Tempo, which was an all-nickel plated 606.

All of the lacquered-brass 6XX beginner model trombones - over the years (regardless of bell size and bore size) featured narrow bell sections and not-curved bell braces. Today's 606 is - nearly - a professional trombone (other than the narrow bell section, and no curved bell brace)...sort of a "2-1/2B"...

The 607 (=609, 607F, 608F) was/is the biggest sleeper of the lot. Nearly everything is 3BF...the bell is literally a 3B bell that got a different stamp at the end. Straight bell brace and yellow .525" slide, but otherwise a 3BF. I have an early 607 that plays the same as my '73 3B and '72 3BF, just a bit beefier thanks to the larger bore slide. It is every bit as professional-grade as the 3B, and actually records better than any other trombone I own. The later ones (after they changed the names from 607/609 to 607F/608F) got hamstrung with terrible student-grade leadpipes, but once you pull the pipe and put in something good they come alive just the same.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:14 pm I believe they are SMALLER than 606's...

I have a near-perfect-condition recently-made (they even put gold annodizing on the aluminum valance on the case, and the outside slides are nickel-silver - as with the pro models) 606 here, but I would want several hundred bucks for it...and that's too much for some single novelty gig...

You're right, me doubling on 'bone is likely a one-and-done scenario, although the Fillmore "Trombone Family" pieces may become a recurring feature with this ensemble--so who knows?

Snooped the local pawn shop this afternoon in hopes of finding something cheap and decent--Conn and Elkhart by Buescher gear tends to turn up there--but not a single trombone was on offer.

- 607(yellow)/8 (80:20) straight-brace 3B F-attach bell sect. w/.525" bore slide - known, but thnx
- abuse of "Tempo" designation -also known, but - also thnx



I learn from working on a whole bunch of stuff...

For those of you who've played both the King 605 and the Olds Ambassador, how do they compare in terms of timbre?

The lone Ambassador I've spent time with was a raw brass early Fullerton model with a script-logo Olds 3 mouthpiece. I recall that it produced a gorgeous symphonic tone and could be played very loudly without breaking up, but didn't have much edge and sizzle to the sound...and that's holding me back from getting one for this particular job.

not answering the question asked?
- guilty as charged...and here it is:

When comparing ketchup to ketchup, I'd pick the one that smells better when I sniff the open bottle.

When comparing two really old beginner trombones, I'd pick the one that has a better slide.

If your 606 works, I think you might be taking the band director too seriously...
Just bring that one.