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So, I don't usually need to go super low on the BBb horns, but when I do, it seems that sometimes the false tones are clearer than using the 4th valve, depending on the phrase.

The Kanstul has this 2'-long 4th slide to move from C to B (which I doubt I'll ever really need), but it just seems easier to use 2+3 for the note.

I don't know if this is a big revelation, but I guess it was mildly interesting to learn that 4 CAN replace 1+3 on low Bb--not that either are really more useful than pedal Bb--not that that note is even practical at all.

Someone once mentioned that upright piston arrangements don't really work for false tones (maybe that was for euphonium?).

What kind of interesting trivia might be considered somewhat useful in approaching false tones?

OK, dumb question time - I've never really understood what "false tones" are, and googling hasn't turned up any answers. In my 40 years (yikes!) of playing, I've never really had 'lessons' per-se other than middle-school "learn how to play" - and never from a tuba-centric teacher, so I've never really gotten the low-down on the finer points like this. Anyone care to explain?

travisd wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:52 am OK, dumb question time - I've never really understood what "false tones" are, and googling hasn't turned up any answers. In my 40 years (yikes!) of playing, I've never really had 'lessons' per-se other than middle-school "learn how to play" - and never from a tuba-centric teacher, so I've never really gotten the low-down on the finer points like this. Anyone care to explain?

Many instruments have notes that aren't "really" there, but you can play them. On a Bb tuba, you can basically lip down a 5th from low Bb and find a kinda slotted Eb and work your way down. On my tenor trombones, it's more of an F below the Bb, so it kinda works like an F trigger. They differ on each horn in how much they resonate, and sometimes require a big embouchure shift, making it very difficult for them to be practical. But they're fun to do, and I found that crappy sounding notes are still fun to use in things like show pieces or pedaling a bassline.

There's not a whole lot of info out there because they're really not too practical, but may sometimes be useful in a bind. Like above, fingering 1234 on my Kanstul will give a C rather than a B (since it's non-compensating), but 23 allows it to sit a bit easier rather than pulling 18" of slide.

On my Kanstul 3/4 BBb, I can find low Eb open, D below that 2nd, and C below that 12. They are a bit “fuzzy” sounding but they are definitely there. People say to play pedal Bb 123 or 24 but I usually can pop it out open. It takes some work to set your embouchure just right for the above notes to play. I haven’t tried this yet on the King so don’t know about that.

bloke's Postulate #637B

The more a "concert" tuba's bugle expansion parameters follow the expansion parameters of a typical sousaphone, the more likely those pitches will be playable well as so-called "false" tones.

3/4 tuba - strong embouchure required
4/4 tuba - fairly strong embouchure required
5/4 tuba - begins to become easier
6/4 tuba - easy-schmeazy

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:34 am bloke's Postulate #637B

The more a "concert" tuba's bugle expansion parameters follow the expansion parameters of a typical sousaphone, the more likely those pitches will be playable well as so-called "false" tones.

3/4 tuba - strong embouchure required
4/4 tuba - fairly strong embouchure required
5/4 tuba - begins to become easier
6/4 tuba - easy-schmeazy

Very interesting. The funny thing is I think the 12J is about as easy as my 5/4 Kanstul. But the Conn has more of a definite tone, albeit much brighter.

I wonder if that will change once I get my overhauled valves back?

I still need to get my receiver on my Holton sousaphone resoldered before I can try the false tones on that. But the horn is in storage for now--it's not easy as a musician dealing with a breakup in the current real estate climate and lack of gigs coming out of the pandemic. Finally things have been picking up, and I hope to keep the momentum going.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:34 am bloke's Postulate #637B

The more a "concert" tuba's bugle expansion parameters follow the expansion parameters of a typical sousaphone, the more likely those pitches will be playable well as so-called "false" tones.

3/4 tuba - strong embouchure required
4/4 tuba - fairly strong embouchure required
5/4 tuba - begins to become easier
6/4 tuba - easy-schmeazy

Solid heuristic.

I owned a "monster" Eb once upon a time. Three valves were plenty, as it had the easiest false tone register both because of the "more fluegelhorn-like" taper* and that Ab is a pretty easy note to play.

My old Mirafone 190 bell on a Holton 6/4 frame (Model 99?) also had great false tones. Didn't need the extra valves, but it would've been nice.

The biggest issue I had with the false tones is that there isn't as much impedance or whatnot to lean against to make that nice "brap"/jake-brake sound that is fun to have as part of the arsenal.

*I started out as a trumpet player. Pedal tones are not well-centered on trumpet. However, when I was fiddling around with fluegelhorns, they popped right out. The odd man out, so to speak, seems to be the trombone. Most trombones offer a decent fundamental Bb. Well, anything larger than a 2B. I dunno about sackbuts.

BopEuph wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:00 pmThe funny thing is I think the 12J is about as easy as my 5/4 Kanstul. But the Conn has more of a definite tone, albeit much brighter.

My 4/4 has decent false tones as well. In the case of the 12J (and 5J), that last bit of flare into the pancake is probably the secret sauce that allows the impedance drop at the bell to support false tones. Narrow bell and stack 3/4 and 4/4 horns like the 184 and 186 are a bit more fidgety.

@matt g
As mentioned several times already, I'm playing a John Williams medley tomorrow night with an orchestra in an outdoor Pops concert. The downbeat is a very loud low B flat. I'm playing it on a big B flat tuba. I'm playing the B flat with 5-1-3 with about a 2 inch pull on the first slide. I'm going for sound quality, as to which you refer.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:47 pm @matt g
As mentioned several times already, I'm playing a John Williams medley tomorrow night with an orchestra in an outdoor Pops concert. The downbeat is a very loud low B flat. I'm playing it on a big B flat tuba. I'm playing the B flat with 5-1-3 with about a 2 inch pull on the first slide. I'm going for sound quality, as to which you refer.

Ah yes, a fellow connoisseur of the sound of sheet metal ripping. :-)

I talk about false tones quite a lot. On my somewhat battered and quite old MF 183 Eb, the Ab false tone is, for me, much easier to access, especially in oom-pah music, than using a valve combination to get there. For one thing, the false tone has a very wide slot, so as long as I can hit the pitch accurately, it is better than having to lip a combination of valves to be in tune. Since it's a four valve Eb, I have to fiddle to get a workable combination for that low Ab, and I am not a slide puller.

On the Star, the first time I owned it, I never even looked for a false tone because "rotary tubas don't have false tones." The second time around, I found it easily and while it is not as "good" as the false tone on the 183, it still works for oom pah stuff. I think I have a much better low range embouchure now than I did the first time around, from playing in that Polka band last October on the 183 -- the opportunity was there to develop that range without risk, so I did. I don't have the air to hold these low pitches for more than a couple seconds, so you people with monster lungs can develop things I can't, like focusing on good tone on sustained pitches down there, and that may affect your attitude towards playing false tones.

I agree about flugel -- the octave concert Bb exists on that and it doesn't on a trumpet. My guess is the conical bores are way more likely to have good false tones. I have never looked for a false tone on my double horn because one is not needed for anything.

Modern trumpets (which are really cornets) are what's called "half-length" instruments because the 1st partial (fundamental/pedal) isn't a usable note. Some trumpeters can play their pedal C very well with brute force, but it's in spite of the instrument rather than working with it.

All flugelhorns have dead-easy pedals, as mentioned. But interestingly, while I can crank out false tones below written low F# on Bb trumpet with ease, false tones don't really exist on my flugelhorn. It will fight you to the death if you dare try to play one.

Trombones are the best of both worlds: usable false tones AND easy pedals. Trombone false tones start on Gb at the bottom of the staff, but if your trombone has a valve or two there are valve false tones as well. I used a single valve Conn 72H as my main gigging bass trombone for over a year, and got intimately familiar with the low C (T2) and low B (T3) false tones. Sometimes putting the valve in flat E isn't practical because of the agile licks required in modern bass trombone parts, so you have to have rocking false tones if those low Bs are going to happen.