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A university is (probably...depending on a P.O. being issued) talking to me about straightening out a beat-up old Holton dependent bass - with a gimmicky dual-purpose left-hand thumb lever, converting the left-hand linkage to thumb-F/third finger D, and (if it still fits in the case) trying to salvage the oem case.

If that comes to pass, I'll post some of the work here...
I've communicated with SUPER-NICE Mike at Instrument Innovations (down the road from Allied), and he has some cool bits-and-pieces (and his prices are fair), but it looks like repurposing a good bit of what's already here will work out fine...and (avoiding a bunch of drilling/tapping) reuse the oem steel balls and (GULP ) either re-use all of the ancient plastic pop-on sockets, or (more likely) fit MIRAPHONE DVS pop-ons to those steel balls...

I probably WILL (re: Instrument Innovations) buy a couple of doglegs and a wide slide bow - to convert the shorty l'il dependent valve E slide to a D slide...c. a hunderd bux.

...I just don't like the idea of using "in-vogue blah-blah links" (which are all-metal/NON-adjustable, and - just as with everything else - eventually end up noisy) SIMPLY for the sake of doing so. I also HATED harvest gold, butcher block countertops, vinyl siding, chukka boots, Nehru shirts, quadraphonic recordings, cannabis-skunky 20-year-old air-headed Marxists, and shag carpeting - when everyone else was going nuts over that stuff...and - when I saw THIS stupid-$h!t (live, on TV - recycling them from Sgt. Pepper, while performing "Hello-Goodbye"), I KNEW that those four poor b@$t@rd$ were headed for DONEsville.







oh yeah...and - for the young-un's (who have never seen good TV, nor heard good popular music)...

Here's the same model (with original "Glantz" bar linkage)...

...and not as beat-up as the one I'm supposed to repair.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/256238035101

I've tried the Glantz...while not as bad as the Olds S24G/P24G split triggers (which will give you carpal tunnel in a matter of minutes), it's one of the worst.

I wanted to love the Glantz, but the saying "I'm all thumbs" takes on special meaning with that linkage. Finetales is right about the Olds rig, too. Over and under levers . You could easily get your thumb pinched in those. As jerry rigged as it looks, the thumb and middle finger levers wind up working the best.

You still find a lot of horns with the Glantz bar and the Conn saxophone inspired levers. You kind of have to give them a break. Double trigger bass bones hadn't been in wide use, so the ergo-mechanics simply weren't as developed.

What we need is low-power actuators so you can put buttons where ever they're convenient.

I think there are two problems with the Glantz system. One is that the thumb has to move too far to the left, and the other is that - when pressing on the left side to get both rotors, one has to defeat both of the springs on both of the lever saddles.

bloke wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:11 am I think there are two problems with the Glantz system. One is that the thumb has to move too far to the left, and the other is that - when pressing on the left side to get both rotors, one has to defeat both of the springs on both of the lever saddles.

I think the idea was great - you should be able to activate one valve with the normal motion, and then activate the other valve with a sideways motion of the thumb. The Conn sax roller thing kind of worked on the same principal, but the Glantz was somewhat simpler. Using two separate fingers is best used for indy valves unless you're into holding the second valve open while activating the first, say going from Bb to D in one pop.

There are people who use the Glantz rig successfully. I don't think it's intrinsically flawed, it just takes some getting used to. I prefer it to the sax roller setup. Part of the reason it didn't catch on is that it only works for dependent setups, and indy setups have long since won that battle. A lot of people use indy setups as if they were dependent (never use the 2nd valve on its own). But if the industry is going to standardize on a single design, independent is the one to settle on.

Glantz works well for people with large/strong hands.
again:
- the motion to the left is farther than the roller system
- these two springs - in particular (strong enough to not only retract rotors, but ALSO to retract all that bulky hardware) - would become tiresome to push, after a couple of hours (or years)

If I had a dependent bass trombone that didn't have the modern thumb and middle finger setup (independent necessitates thumb and middle finger), I'd probably prefer the roller style. I'm not sure my hand is big enough to cover the spread to the left on the Glantz system.

However, either would be better than the King 6B style, where one has to move their thumb to the RIGHT (out). That there is not a natural movement to me.

Without having seen the Olds style (S23, yes?) I'll pass judgement on that.

basically an edit of my immediately previous post:

As with those German-styled euphonium main tuning slide triggers, the Glantz thing was just way overbuilt. It could have been made of titanium or even stainless steel of much smaller gauge, the thumb-slide lateral distance could have been decreased, and the springs could have been thoughtfully balanced in strength.

I've mentioned him before:
A large frame / large hands friend of mine - who had been a Remington student - bought one (new) and got a kick out of it. He left his Conn 73H in its case, and played the Glantz until he lucked into a genuine vintage 70H...

... I'm talking about back when these Holton things first came out.

I'm going to write up the quote on this repair, today (since I'm fairly close to having time to do it).

If approved, I might do a semi-pictorial.

instrumentinnovations offers some nice products, but it still requires a great deal of time, as their trombone linkage is not customized for individual models.

I'm going to attempt to minimize purchases from them, and reuse as many materials (from the original Glantz system - cut apart and repurposed) as possible. I will do this, as I am an environmentalist and conversationalist - even though I don't fly in private jets to environmentalist concerts, am not chauffeured to within two blocks of conference sites, and do not bicycle myself in the last two blocks.
Also - as buying not-ready-to-install parts will add to the expense (and not really save very much time at all) using too many of their (admittedly, handy) products will not accomplish more than adding to cost. Likely, I'll buy a couple of bass trombone F-attachment bore doglegs from them (c. .58X"), but probably not too much else. This instrument will be used by students who are seeking experience with the bass trombone, and - likely - not by Charlie Vernon, Ben Van Dijk, or the like.

Additionally - as I'll mostly be cutting things apart and putting them back together in different ways - in addition to un-soldering the playing slide turning it on the lathe, and bending the tubes back straight (rather than replacing them), and putting it back together, I'm going to be able to remain a "fixer" rather than a "tech"...and (also being a pro-health/happiness, I don't want to be responsible for spreading Lyme Disease, and I've heard that techs can do that.

- convert Holton Glantz bar to individual left thumb and finger triggers for the two rotors
- convert E slide to D slide
- un-F.U.B.A.R. bell flare and main tuning slide bow
- repair playing slide

(a university-owned instrument which has been sitting for decades, due to being "funky/gimmicky")

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:12 am I don't want to be responsible for spreading Lyme Disease

Ok, where is he going with this one?

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:12 am and I've heard that techs can do that.

arpthark wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:29 am

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:12 am I don't want to be responsible for spreading Lyme Disease

Ok, where is he going with this one?

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:12 am and I've heard that techs can do that.

I can see all the tuba peeps waiting with bated breath for the pictorial documentation of this project, as they probably don't understand the difference between pictorial and pectoral.

This is a picture of me, after having smoothed out a dozen sixty-year-old King brass sousaphone bells:

Yeah...

Trombone gadgets tend to be easier to wig out and fabricate than tuba gadgets, because trombones are a little less three dimensional, far less complex, and also are epically smaller.

Based on everything this instrument needs to have done to it to be viable, I have a feeling that I probably quoted about three or four hundred more than the most they would approve - to have everything that it needs done to it, so I suspect that I won't be doing anything.

When the playing slide drags pretty badly, the bell and the main tuning slide are whacked, and the second rotor is an old fashioned e rotor, upgrading linkage seems to be the last thing on the list - at least to me... and it was the first thing that was mentioned to me...

I suppose it's not that big of a deal, but I have to sort of jam the instrument (currently oem) in the case, even though it's a ("the") Holton case.

btw... These Wisconsin Holton bass trombones are extraordinary heavy.

If they get to the point where they want to unload a 180 cheap, I could be interested (depending on how cheap). Even if it's only the bell section.

The quote was approved.
Now, I have to do the work.

I put this off, but (as of yesterday and today), I'm pretty far along...
(HECK YES I dragged my feet on this nightmare.)

bell - un-destroyed

REALLY messed up main TUNING slide (bell section - all sorts of epic issues) - slick as a whistle
my opinion: Holton bass trombone main tuning slide bows (bell section) are UGLY-shaped. They remind me of the UGLY shape of the huge bottom bows on the Holton 345 tubas.

playing slide - now, about as smooth as a NEW Holton slide (LOL...)

half-loose brace flanges in the F-attachment tubing (and other small solder joints that were sorta hangin' - fixed

LINKAGE CONVERSION - the easy part (F-rotor) is done

LEFT TO BE DONE - the linkage to the (dependent) other rotor, and converting the oem E circuit to a D circuit
I keep forgetting to buy two of these: https://instrumentinnovations.com/bass-wrap-s-tube/

once done:
wait (XXX days) for the university to pay for all of this mess.

Dents Be Gone! wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:40 am

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:12 amI'm going to attempt to minimize purchases from them, and reuse as many materials (from the original Glantz system - cut apart and repurposed) as possible.

Don’t forget, “measure once, cut twice…”

Heck, I don’t even measure. I just eyeball it and fill any gaps with solder!

thank

Dents Be Gone! wrote: ↑Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:40 am Don’t forget, “measure once, cut twice…”

Yeah, that guy says he makes a baritone trombone.....