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Yes, first, let's review the basic valve math: 1+3=4. We've all known this on tuba since middle school. The problem is that once most of us got that 4th valve, we never looked back, because regarding 1+3, we heard: "out of tune," "can't intonate," "4th is the better way," and other pedantic platitudes. B*** S***!

Many years ago, in a community band, we played a piece that in the middle movement the tubas had an ostinato with the notes C, G, & D. All the other BBb tubas in the section played C 4th valve, and G and D 1+2, conventionally. They burbled, burbled, burbled, and did not consider why. I took one look at the movement, adjusted my 1st and 3rd valve slides so I could play C 1+3 and G & D 3 alone, and played the ostinato with perfect legato, only having to move one valve.

Recently, I have a couple of sections in a piece this season in my current community band that the way the line sits in C-minor, that a combination of the response of the tuba and the intonation of the notes in intervals in the motif dictate I do the same thing for a latin-influenced solo line to set up the rest of the band.

In both instances I have ample rests in the transitions both before the sections to set the slides, and afterwards to re-set the slides conventionally so the rendition is seamless.

Finally, I love to play sousaphone. I could be happy playing nothing but traditional outdoor concerts in the grand tradition of concerts in the park, gazebo, etc. But...I am NOT going to purchase a 4-valve sousaphone. I'm not going to deal with the weight, especially since I can have the 1st valve slide of a Conn redone as a movable slide to ride throttle as described for outdoor concerts.

Folks: use your alternate fingerings. Practice them. Play tubas that have accessible valve slides, (or at least play compensating valve blocks) with slides you can set, and in other instances "ride throttle" on your slides (I'm thinking about 1st slide in particular on non-comp tubas: set for Ab and Eb, pull for D & G, shove for 2nd space C, etc.) If the tuba doesn't have these options, have your tech make them so. Flipping the 1st valve circuit on a King tuba comes to mind, as well as everywhere I have posted about converting the upper loop of the 1st valve of a Conn souzy valve block as it sits at the left wrist and is perfect for modifying.

Remember the tradition for tuning 3-valve tubas: compromise the open bugle on the tonic, fifth, and octave notes to get everything as close as possible in tune open; pull and set 3 so that 2+3 is slightly flat and can be lipped up by arching the tongue, increasing the velocity of the air; and 1+3 lipped down if you don't have access to a moveable 1st valve slide.

More examples: on a Besson 3-valve comp play G & D 3 alone because 1 & 2 are tuned "dead" and will be slightly sharp on these two notes using the conventional 1+2 fingering. Common knowledge: a Conn 2XJ may need 1+3 for bottom of the staff F to be in tune. Other common knowledge: you may need 1+2 on middle line D to be in tune on a Miraphone 186 and the 1st valve circuit shortened to shove for 2nd space C because the fifth partials are woefully flat. And the list goes on. I have even pulled 1 and played "open" BBb 1+4 when a delicate articulation was required. Play your instrument. Learn its quirks and idiosyncrasies, including all alternate fingerings. There is no "perfect" tuba. Don't let your instrument play you.

Remember that Jake said in the end we are all 3-valve players. It's all that we can navigate in any given moment.

Did I say Use Your Alternate Fingerings to get the most out of the part and properly support the ensemble!!!

I didn't learn tuba in middle school. I'm a bass trombone player who had to learn tuba on my own at age 70. I use alternate positions and fingerings all the time on trombone. Is there a chart for alternate fingerings on tuba? I do play a 4-valve but knowing the fingerings would be helpful. Or is it trial and error depending on the horn?

Dents Be Gone! wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:03 am In other countries, the standard, accepted fingerings shown on finger charts seem to be different than what is viewed as acceptable in the US.

Neither did I learn tuba in school (middle school or other), so I'm curious where the differences might be. A casual search online shows America, Germany, France and Brazil apparently on the same page. (Though the French have it as a treble clef transposing instrument, and the Germans write C "B#".)

On my CC tuba, for intonation I sometimes use 4th valve for the middle G, 2-3-5 instead of 2-4, and the D, Db and C above the staff would use the open, 2nd, and 1st fingerings

How about these alternate fingerings?

Dents Be Gone! wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:52 am I like community bands, but suggestions of alternates is mind blowing sacrilege in some circles.

I guess that's where the deficiency is in my experience, then - not enough hanging out in nutty community bands. So in the end, your feeling is that one should choose fingering for optimal intonation. I can't see that being really controversial here, but ... I will say, if it's little or no difference and it's a faster passage, I might go for a one-valve fingering and save the more complex alternatives for when I have more time. There you go. I don't care if I'm banished.

My six-year junior/senior hjgh school with a shared band room and instruments (very low income neighborhood) only had three valve sousaphones, a worn out valves three valve King tuba, and - when I was in the 12th grade - we got a three valve Miraphone 3/4 and one of those Reynolds-Olds smallish things with three valves.

I've never found the four NON-compensating valves system to be much use, and nor does that 4th valve accomplish much of anything. I bought myself a four-valve Miraphone 186 C tuba when I was 17 (because that's what my new-to-me teacher owned) with money that I had saved up from playing solo guitar gigs and stuff, and it was always a struggle, particularly being in C - with the low range being truncated by a whole step.

With four non-compensating valves, 2-4 is still wildly sharp, 1-4 is no good, some tubes might feature a really long first slide which allows for 1-4 to work, I suppose if you blow the crap out of it and play it at triple fortissimo, 1-2-4 plays that pitch almost sharp enough, the only pitch that happens to be about in tune in the low range is 2-3-4... so a fourth non-compensating valve - to me, with no fifth or sixth valve - is a big waste of money and a useless addition of a bunch of extra weight and mass.

I'm thinking through all of my instruments, and I don't own any like that (no 4-valve non-comps) anymore. Even my spare euphonium - which is a Yamaha 321 - has the dependent fifth valve device which they offered as an aftermarket accessory long ago. My main instrument is a really large five-rotor B flat "kaiser" tuba. The only pitch I play with the fourth valve (above "low F") is B-natural 2-4, which features the fourth slide tuned for B, Fortunately that same tuning position is just about right for low F as well - along with the very low pitches below low-F - other than the very low C, which requires that I pull the fifth slide out or play it as a false tone with 1-2. I took my #1 slide circuit apart on that instrument, it now has a stop rod, and its tuning range is within about 3/8 of an inch from all the way on that rod for 1-3 C and all the way in is first valve C.

An issue that most of us seem to never discuss is set of huge (bad) tuning discrepancies up and down along the 2-3 valve combination. I've addressed that on my instrument as well, but that's not the topic. Further, posting about any of my other instruments in the same post would make it way too long and way too boring.

sousaphones:
I've determined that older King sousaphones are the easiest to scooch around in tune with only three valves and no slide moving.

2-4 is a lot closer to being in tune than 1-2-3.

So you tune the 4th valve slide to make B in tune, but in the same post you call the 4th valve useless? That's what it's there for!


If you are going to be in a key that doesn't contain any 4th valve notes by itself, you can pull the 4th valve slide until 2-4 is in tune. If you have the random 4th valve notes as an accidental, use 1-3.

I'm doing that with my tuba students this year because they have one all state piece in E, and another one in B. Helps a lot

I was taught to be a "set it and forget it" kind of guy when it came to slides so I use my fair share of alternate fingerings, but they're fairly common on CC tuba. 235 for low Db and Gb. 234 for low E. I set 1 and 2 so that 1st valve notes are in tune and the 12 valve combinations are also in tune, but it means I use 3rd valve for A (every A lol).

I use a lot of the same alternate fingerings on my 6/4 5 valve BBb as well with one extra one. G at the top of the bass clef staff is horrendously out of tune with 12 or 3, so I use 5. A good friend was trying my horn one day and he noticed the high G problem so I told him to use 5. He tried it and then said, "that isn't supposed to work." lol

tylerferris1213 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:34 am I was taught to be a "set it and forget it" kind of guy when it came to slides so I use my fair share of alternate fingerings, but they're fairly common on CC tuba. 235 for low Db and Gb. 234 for low E. I set 1 and 2 so that 1st valve notes are in tune and the 12 valve combinations are also in tune, but it means I use 3rd valve for A (every A lol).

I use a lot of the same alternate fingerings on my 6/4 5 valve BBb as well with one extra one. G at the top of the bass clef staff is horrendously out of tune with 12 or 3, so I use 5. A good friend was trying my horn one day and he noticed the high G problem so I told him to use 5. He tried it and then said, "that isn't supposed to work." lol

a common solution for a G being out of tune is to use 2nd (at least on the yamaha 641)

One of the reasons I like the B&S piston valve slide layout so much is it allows you to manipulate the 3rd valve slide really easily. On my old PT-20P, I actually just rode throttle on 3 -- push in for 235, pull out for Eb below the staff, push in for Ab. Everything else was pretty close (besides that ol' stinky sharp 3rd partial that B&S is known for... I had to un-train myself to quit lipping that G down automatically).

Other sources of alternate fingerings and slide pullings is to look for "trill fingerings," although I have rarely, if ever, had to perform a trill on a tuba outside of an etude.

Obviously, there are some compromises that have to be made with a valved instrument. My 3rd and 4th valves are generally set significantly longer than the interval they nominally represent. I often prefer to play C and F 1-3 despite having 4 or 5 valves. 1-4 needs help for Eb, but 234 is good on D.

I probably wouldn't miss the 4th valve on my sousaphone, but where would I be without the cool factor?

LeMark wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:16 am 2-4 is a lot closer to being in tune than 1-2-3.

So you tune the 4th valve slide to make B in tune, but in the same post you call the 4th valve useless? That's what it's there for!


If you are going to be in a key that doesn't contain any 4th valve notes by itself, you can pull the 4th valve slide until 2-4 is in tune. If you have the random 4th valve notes as an accidental, use 1-3.

I'm doing that with my tuba students this year because they have one all state piece in E, and another one in B. Helps a lot

It's "nearly" useless as far as extending the low range is concerned. You can pick over my lack of inserting the adverb "nearly", but the fact remains that the only in-tune pitches (which involve the fourth valve) with a four-valve non-compensating system are either the second or third partial fourth valve pitch, and 2-3-4.
To argue that 2-4 is better than 1-2-3 - while it's still sucks bad - isn't a particularly strong argument. When talking about my own instrument, I was talking about a five valve system. At that point, a non-compensating fourth valve becomes much more useful, as a fifth valve is a de facto compensating valve, even though manual, and not automatic.

I'm lucky that the fourth valve length for low F on my B flat tuba is just about right for 2-4 B natural as well. That's not usual. Again: I'm lucky in that regard.

Once again, imagine how much more considerate of the taxpayers and how much more efficient it would be for schools to own three valve compensating fiberglass sousaphones which could be used for all playing indoors and outdoors. 1-2-3 is in tune, 1-3 is in tune, false tones work beautifully, and anyone who wants a fancier instrument can either buy it themselves or the individual band can raise private money to buy whatever they want. Brass ones are routinely beat to crap, and require expensive annual repairs - also typically at the expense of taxpayers. Again, individuals or private band booster clubs can purchase whatever they choose to purchase, but three valve compensating fiberglass sousaphones need to become a thing.
... it's not as if I'm speaking from a lack of experience...

Pull the 4th valve slide and leave it out when playing in the keys of D, A, E, and B.

The worst keys for a non compensating 4 valve instrument are C and G.

Off topic, as a slide puller, this post makes me wonder and will make me watch to see how many European players pull slides