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self image: artist
patron image: curiosity
exec. dir./board image: part-time help

I suspect that some concertmasters are under the impression that those on the boards of directors respect them more than they do the secretary in the office.

exec. dir./board image: Easily replaced asset with little to no innate value.

I suspect a lot of the perceived value of a concertmaster by the administration is how well their acting comes across to the audience.
I wonder how many of the administration are tone deaf non-musicians. I've never understood "organization people" who value the organization more than the people in it. Many churches come to mind.

I'm aware of a meeting whereby a board member was played an excerpt recording from a movement of a meat and potatoes symphony (a discussion of the programming for the next season), and - when the bassoon came in - they asked what it was.

Years ago, I was on an orchestra committee. At the negotiating table, one of the board members said (somewhat paraphrased, as it was MANY years ago): We can't take you seriously, because we can't respect anybody that would work for these measly (HIS word) wages.

the scumbag

Wow. And that person was on the board. Unveiling, as if it needed to be unveiled, the purpose of the organization, which was, of course, to make money, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the musical arts except that they were the vehicle for the money (as is so often the case.) I was briefly on a board once until I figured out what was going on; in that case, the board members were unpaid slaves, the orchestra was a small one organized by the conductor, and the entire purpose was to aggrandize the conductor, who was a most royal a$$. One of those big frog in a small pond types, who eventually drove himself out of Tucson via the way he was, and went somewhere else to try again.

Board members are unpaid.
They are on orchestra boards in order to be noticed by the community - hoping to become board members of more prestigious community boards of directors, and possibly parlaying that into a elected or appointed political office (whereby considerable sums of money can be allocated to those who will reciprocate). Yes, they are almost always already wealthy, but who ain't lookin' fo' mo' money?

Mary Ann wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:32 am Wow. And that person was on the board. Unveiling, as if it needed to be unveiled, the purpose of the organization, which was, of course, to make money, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the musical arts except that they were the vehicle for the money (as is so often the case.) I was briefly on a board once until I figured out what was going on; in that case, the board members were unpaid slaves, the orchestra was a small one organized by the conductor, and the entire purpose was to aggrandize the conductor, who was a most royal a$$. One of those big frog in a small pond types, who eventually drove himself out of Tucson via the way he was, and went somewhere else to try again.

Sounds almost exactly like an orchestra I was involved with. The MD was a malignant narcissist, and everything was about him. We (the board) decided to not renew his contract, and he staged a coup and forced the board out. Ugly scene.

The main point that I'm trying to make (to high school/college conservatory musicians who read these threads EVEN IF they are told to not do so) is that there really is no respect for this profession, and - at every possibly opportunity - there will be pay cuts (simultaneously with epic conservatory tuition debt)...and this assumes managing to find a living-wage-paying orchestra job (if in any sort of yankee city, a bare minimum of $100K, and - otherwise - at least $80K, assuming no side hussles).

all-state band/orchestra youth orchestra, conservatory orchestra (etc.) - praise and admiration

professional orchestra - viewed as on the level with someone who lives under a freeway overpass and holds a sign at the end of an exit ramp

A newer phenomenon is that orchestras today (as well as corporations) are looking - not just for talent, but - for people who fit certain types of profiles. They seem to believe that their orchestra needs to look like the community. I don't have anything negative to say about that...My comment about that is "whatever" (as - particularly at this later point in my life - all previously stated would be plenty, were I younger, to discourage me from entering into this industry), but it's absolutely a reality about which auditioners should be aware.

I doubt that many of you 17 - 25 year old people are handed any of these realities (if at all) in plain language. Without studios full of young hopefuls, studio teachers would either be completely out of a gig, or would lose their lucrative side-hustles.

At every single rehearsal (and no, I wouldn't do it at a concert) I'm prepared to walk out to my car during the mid-rehearsal break, and not return.
Thankfully, most of my music directors (and my orchestra gigs are nickel-and-dime) range from somewhat-civil to very-nice. One of them (two or three years ago) actually admitted - during a rehearsal - that they were working on trying to be a nicer person (and it showed)...Knowing their story, I knew why they tended to be distant towards others...but - by that time - that (logical) reason no longer existed.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:07 pm At every single rehearsal (and no, I wouldn't do it at a concert) I'm prepared to walk out to my car during the mid-rehearsal break, and not return.

Interesting. So, there's no concern about any blow back or damage to your reputation that could impact other such engagements in the future?

I had a situation once where there was a guest conductor doing an entire concert cycle and I bowed out after the first rehearsal because of his behavior, but I gave no indication that was WHY I was now "unavailable". I've considered leaving a couple times but with something 40+ active full-time tuba playing professionals in the DC area I have to manage those sorts of things very carefully.

kingrob76 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:25 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:07 pm At every single rehearsal (and no, I wouldn't do it at a concert) I'm prepared to walk out to my car during the mid-rehearsal break, and not return.

Interesting. So, there's no concern about any blow back or damage to your reputation that could impact other such engagements in the future?

I had a situation once where there was a guest conductor doing an entire concert cycle and I bowed out after the first rehearsal because of his behavior, but I gave no indication that was WHY I was now "unavailable". I've considered leaving a couple times but with something 40+ active full-time tuba playing professionals in the DC area I have to manage those sorts of things very carefully.

I wouldn't make any sort of "scene". The "scene" (or absurd behavior/words/etc.) would have already have been made by someone else.
If they called, I would just have Mrs. bloke explain that I felt ill.
When they sent materials for subsequent engagements, I would likely just let them know that "It's just getting to busy, around here, to be able to do those sorts of things, anymore."
I did just that very thing in regards to a steady church orchestra engagement (decades ago), but I didn't walk out in the middle of a service; I just sent a response back making up some excuse to never come back. Oddly, they didn't "get" it, and kept calling - asking if I would sub for the replacement person. The church shrunk (urban blight), they sold their basketball-coliseum-sized facility, built a "regular-large" facility down the road, and - over the next few years - the gig fizzled out and morphed in a church-member rock band. (The whole reason there had been a 25-piece orchestra for quite a few years was because the big-cheese preacher was a flute player...but he ended up being fired for doing the bouncy-bouncy with some choir ladies...You know: the same-ol'/same-ol' "church intrique" crap...and the guy who played first trumpet and contracted the gig would always talk about what a "God-centered" church it was, but - the minute they told him that his contracting work would have to - henceforth - be on a volunteer basis...as well as his wife's youth choir stuff, of course: they quit.)

bloke "who believes in something beyond-my-understanding/larger-than-myself (stopping there), and am perfectly happy to play music engagements for organized religion outlets - and only do my very best for them, as long as everything's cool"

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 2:40 pm and the guy who played first trumpet and contracted the gig would always talk about what a "God-centered" church it was, but - the minute they told him that his contracting work would have to - henceforth - be on a volunteer basis...as well as his wife's youth choir stuff, of course: they quit.)

You can't give 10% to the church if you don't get 100% of your gig check.

My motto is if the preacher gets paid and the guys with the orange vests - who stop all the traffic, so that all the churchgoers can get to the Sunday buffet first - get paid, I get paid... but I'm not a member and the orange vested guys aren't members, and - when preachers get offered a better gig - they're not members either.