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https://www.ebay.com/itm/355128343382?m ... media=COPY

Great price, eh?

Never played one of these, but wouldn't mind. What was this tuba's relation to Nirschl horns? Was this designed by WN?

Small sample sizes for all, but I always thought the Besson 995s sounded nice but needed a whole lot of slide pulling and had kind of a dead response to them. The Nirschls sounded even better, far better response, and better intonation as well.

And honestly, at this price or more, there are an awful lot of options in this category besides the Besson 995 these days. Hard to say what's better or worse anymore, they're all kind of just out there.

Remember that this horn still exists as that B&S “International” model…

bort’s right. There’s far too many options for $5500 nowadays for me to wholeheartedly deem this tuba as worth it.

These seem to me to be sort of like the Pt-7. Some can be nice, but they never had a giant sample size to iron out the kinks with the horn.

That’s probably why it’s been re-released as the International model and the 7 re-appeared as the MRP?

Was the PT7 ever offered as a rotary instrument (Neptune?)? I think I've only seen piston/7P versions.

TheHatTuba wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 9:42 pm Was the PT7 ever offered as a rotary instrument (Neptune?)? I think I've only seen piston/7P versions.

There were both piston and rotary Neptunes, and people (including me) generally liked the rotary version better. But that bell was just goofy-large, and for the physical bigness of the tuba, it wasn't really a 6/4 in the traditional sense. Nice sound, but the other big B&S tubas pulled it all together a little better. Especially the PT-6, largely because they made so many of them and had a proper R&D cycle for improvement.

The PT-7 and the piston Neptune are siblings, but not twins. As Bob Tucci told me, the Neptune was made to Culbertson's specs, design ideas, and was then all prettied up and locked in place, with no more changes. The PT-7 had the smaller bell, and other smaller differences, but saw many other improvements with each production run, some of which m were quite beneficial. Great for the 7, but sorry Neptune, no more changes means no more changes. In the end, like the Neptune, the 7 was just completely overtaken by the popularity of the 6.

The PT-7 can be a glorious tuba. Mine was exceptional... Everything good about the Neptune, but a smaller and more focused bell diameter, and that was spot-on. Still not a York-style 6/4, and I think that's what doomed it... Big piston tuba that's not a BAT? Well, the 7 was advertised as being a rotary BBb tuba sound in a piston CC tuba body. I think that also doomed it, because it was too much of an identity crisis to be two steps away from what it is to what it is supposed to be like. The MRP was advertised the same way -- BBb sound in a CC body, but as a rotary CC, it's less of a stretch (i e., nobody looks at the merp and thinks it's going to be a BAT kind of sound).

lol @ too many options at $5500 nowadays for a 4/4 European made CC.

The Mrp-Cp and the Pt-7 are completely different tubas. I have spent a substantial time on both including Mr. Ps personal Mrp-Cp. The Pt-7 plays a little more open in the low register and the Mrp-Cp plays like a pt-6 down low. It’s kind of like a Thor vs a pt-6, both different but good. The pt-7 is a lot heavier and bigger.

matt g wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:21 am lol @ too many options at $5500 nowadays for a 4/4 European made CC.

The only other thing that's really in that price range of comparable quality (and not European) is a used Eastman 4/4. But those can even be higher, depending on the seller.

So, are there rotary PT7s? Sorry if that was answered

I had a really good Neptune for a while. Had some cool ideas (minus the detachable leadpipe ), not sure how many of them did anything. For example, all slides were inside outside. Cool, but...

PT-7 was only available as a piston tuba.

Neptune -- the reversed slides were a nice feature, as was the 2nd valve slide kicker. Most of the rest (to me) was cosmetic, but also nice looking. I had both leadpipes, but disliked changing them around, it just felt like I was going to do something stupid and bend it up. I really liked the valve paddles, though. Cool tuba overall, but the 20.5" bell was just too much. The focus offered by the PT-7 bell (which was like 19.5" or something) was a lot better of a sound for me. The only reason I sold the PT-7 was because the valves were too much of a reach around to the front of the horn for me, and caused pain in my wrist and elbow. Otherwise it was a ton of fun!

The paddles are something I wish more manufacturers did.

I had a Neptune on trial for approximately 2 or 3 weeks. It was cool and big, and sounded great, loved the valves and all the styling cues, but I was not able to get around the octave C's being too narrow (low C was sharp, C in the staff was flat). I gave it back and ended up getting a PT-6 a few months later.

I do agree with David's initial point that these Bessons, like the PT-7 and a few others you see floating around, were just not made in great numbers and never popular, so the consensus on how they play is left up to the vagaries of the imagination and hearsay.

If I were in the market and lived in California, I would give this a serious look, especially if I were able to get ahold of the seller outside of eBay and avoid paying their ridiculous fees and sales tax. (CA 7.25% sales tax on a $5,500 tuba amounts to an additional $400, plus eBay fees, so you're looking at over $6k for this after it's all said and done.)

edit: actually, those fees might come from the seller's end, but regardless, it would be a win-win for both parties to avoid eBay as the middleman.

I am biased here because one of the *very* best instruments I have ever played was a "just-released" Besson 995. I gave that instrument a LOT of my time at the Army conference that year and LOVED it. Roger Lewis once talked to me about "shaking hands" with an instrument - this was more like 3rd base. I was not in a position to buy an instrument that year but it permanently skewed my view of that model in the positive direction.

YMMV.

Right to Blake-

Also, I should mention that I think the 7, Neptune, MRP(P) each share the same DNA. Sort of like, the 7/Neptune came out, never got R&D, but they’ve sort of “evolved” into the big MRP horns.

Let’s not forget that all B&S horns share the same general valve block and slide layout, as do the MW’s.

More so with these, the bodies and big bows are what changed.